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Gods and Vampires?

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  • Rock113
    started a topic Gods and Vampires?

    Gods and Vampires?

    In VtM some gods are vampires actually (Mithras, Set, Osiris, etc.), some “gods” are faked by vampires (Shaitan, etc.). I wonder if there’s a list or thread discusses this? Or do you know more guys like this?

    And: I wonder if the Odin hated by Get of Fenris is the same guy in Wolves of Sea, a Gangrel? I think it’s not

  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    ... so I think the defining point of God is a rather useless term.
    I would agree with you, if and only if people in this very thread (and, y'know, elsewhere) didn't keep jumping into these kinds of discussion and saying, "Pah! [x] is not a god!"

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    "A superhuman being or spirit, worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes."

    That's generally the one I go with, anyway; it's a bit of a low bar, but many theistic religions don't feature supreme deities who can create or destroy worlds with a flick of their fingers.

    Words change. The concept of what is a god is intrinsically tied to centuries of christian philosophical concepts. We then back date idea and make false assumption about a culture assuming they hold to our ideas of Gods.

    For example: Early Christianity was seen as Atheism. Why? Because what they worship does not fall under what the Romans considered Gods. There is an intrinsic quid pro quo in Roman religion, that if the gods do not provide that it was perfectly acceptable to not worship them.

    Even the idea of them as non physical entities is much a construct of centuries of redefintion.. at least at one time people probably did believe in super powered physical entities more akin to Thor as gods than the modern view. Hell Alexander was seen as a god within his own life time... so I think the defining point of God is a rather useless term.


    I think the better question is.. Is Vampire Set Mythic Set? Is 4th gen Ventrue Mithras.. mythic mythras or did these vampires just steal a story later? Was the predynastic view of Set corrupted by the war with his brother? I think its far more interesting to have vampires steal divinity because their nature is parasitic they are not the sources of things but pull themselves up inside taking over. Even if there was never a "true" Mithras before people started worshiping him... the vampire still found a relgion and bent it do his whims he corrupted not created. At least this is my view.

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  • Penelope
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I do think Mithras was the son of a Sun God and a demigod who was Embraced.

    Set and company also could have been gods who were Embraced.
    Or the opposite, vampires who transcended to divine status centuries or even millennia after their Embrace.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    "There's always an ending."

    Leave a comment:


  • omenseer
    replied
    Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
    Yeah. In God of War “god” is a very... well. They can be killed or replaced, and not THAT powerful.
    Bear in mind that in most mythologies its not uncommon for gods to be killed by other gods or beings on their power level.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rock113
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    "A superhuman being or spirit, worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes."

    That's generally the one I go with, anyway; it's a bit of a low bar, but many theistic religions don't feature supreme deities who can create or destroy worlds with a flick of their fingers.
    Yeah. In God of War “god” is a very... well. They can be killed or replaced, and not THAT powerful.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
    I played new God of War on PlayStation recently, maybe find out the definition of “god” is more important.
    "A superhuman being or spirit, worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes."

    That's generally the one I go with, anyway; it's a bit of a low bar, but many theistic religions don't feature supreme deities who can create or destroy worlds with a flick of their fingers.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 02-21-2021, 11:50 AM.

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  • Rock113
    replied
    I played new God of War on PlayStation recently, maybe find out the definition of “god” is more important.

    *Btw, this game is a great stuff for Spirit Worlds.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mister_Dunpeal
    replied
    the idea of layers/levels of reality overlapping isn't a new one (indeed one of my favorite illustrative examples is the Dark Tower - which is seen as the axle upon which all realities turn) and its not terribly surprising to see it in WoD because it embraces the whole 'point of view' perceptual thing that will always be the ultimate excuse against arguments of contradiction. Like the Tower looks like a tower to human eyes but the fact the SK universe embraces worlds 'next door' to other worlds as well as levels 'above' and 'below' suggests that our perceptions are limited. Which you can borrow from an even earlier fictional story called 'Flatland' where a 2d 'person' visits a 1d and then 3d world and the resulting perceptions there in. To us a world with more than 3 (or 4 if we include time) dimensions would look as odd and incomprehensible as a 3d world to a 2d person. Probably even more complicated actually (as in not only number of dimensions, but visual wavelengths and audio ranges that the 'person' can perceive or not perceive. The end result is an incomplete picture where the humans miss out on a lot that 'higher' supernatural beings - such as Elohim/Fallen - have no trouble perceiving and comprehending. It's probably no wonder that Demon and Mage emphasize this so much more.) It's hard to call it a contradiction if you lack all the details needed to comprehend it, and it only looks contradictory because of those gaps (and because some people may not envision alternative ideas that would sound plausible to them. 'logic' is sometimes perceptual too.)



    Ultimately it comes down to 'does this make personal sense to me and/or the groups I subscribe to, yes/no?' and as long as the answer is 'yes' (or enough 'yes' answers in a larger group) then it all works out. More or less.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    I do think Mithras was the son of a Sun God and a demigod who was Embraced.

    Set and company also could have been gods who were Embraced.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gryffon15
    replied
    So people who have read my posts on this forum know that I’m a fan of a little something called MULTI-RESONANCE LAYERED REALITY.

    This is a concept from DtF with aligning concepts throughout the World of Darkness that, in my opinion, does a good job of explaining how several distinct entities can claim to be the same entity/being.

    A good example of this is gods.

    So let’s take a god from Old Greek Religion, Poseidon.

    Now, there may be any number of vampires who have invoked Poseidon and his titles to gather cults or create a sense of religious legitimacy for their predations. It’s likely I think that there were several vampires who roamed the islands of the Mediterranean in millenia past who dubbed themselves ‘Earth-Shaker’.

    Similarly, from the perspective of WtA, there are certainly spirits who take on forms akin to Poseidon. There is assuredly an incarna called the Earth-Shaker who likely has a complex relationship with the Black Furies and the Incarna of Horse. There is also likely to be a number of representatives of Poseidon in the Far Realm of the Mythic Lands in the Umbra. I would also say it’s possible that jaggling and gafflings, as representatives or calling themselves ’Poseidon’ have formed both because of ritual worship and to embody aspects of the greater god.

    In the old golden age that Mages recall/imagine, there may have been an Awakened who shook the earth and stirred the sea with a trident. Avatars in that figures image may still flow throughout the body of Awakened Souls while spiritual representatives of the gods appear in all layers of the umbra, particularly to those Awakened and Hedge Priests who follow the old Hellenic Rites.

    From the Dark Ages of Greece, when many gods were praised as Cthonic entities, I would not be surprised that shades whisper of Poseidon passing in old and distant Far Shores in the deeper places of the Tempest.

    There was definitively an ‘Archfey’ or ‘Firstborn’ who would have called themselves Poseidon as we have signs that every human religion had representation amongst Firstborn beings akin to the Tuatha de Danaan. The Inanimae and Satyrs would particularly remember such a great figure, now shrouded in mists, perhaps embodied in Living Legends and Chimera from time to time or waiting to be found in the Deep Dreaming.

    There may have been a member of the fallen, likely a defiler of the fifth house, that dubbed themselves “Poseidon” and shepherded a faith before the Great Deluge; alongside all these other figures.

    There may have been entirely human priests and spiritualists and storytellers who discovered Poseidon through ritual practices or invented stories to unite their communities and explain the seemingly arbitrary shaking of the earth and sea.

    There may be a true god, a divinity beyond mechanical compartmentalization, a being that we cannot understand who watches over the World of Darkness alongside countless other divinities.

    All of these things can be simultaneously true and valid and I think it creates a richer tapestry for the World of Darkness if they are.

    Leave a comment:


  • Orkar
    replied
    Depends on what is a "god" in your book cause in VTM gods can be very powerfull mages (Ascended to godhood at 8 Arete) or very old creautures that brought forth the exalted, or very powerfull spirits (Charon, Luna) and technicly youd have to count demons as gods as well (fallen angels bu immortal pwoerfull etc. at least the higher ones) which would mean that the only way vampires can become gods is ascension to demonhood which a few baalia actually achieved

    "deities" like Odin, mithras etc. are either names of cultures the vampries took to impersonate go gain power or indeed the vampire may be the origin of the myth (after all waht ancient vampires can do must look like a gods power to humans)

    Leave a comment:


  • Mister_Dunpeal
    replied
    As Pleiades notes, God is more a title than a thing. If you have the ability to enforce the declaration in some manner, you're a god and nobody can gainsay you until you no longer can enforce that. It's very perceptual as far as semantics goes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Konigheim Horror
    replied
    Isn't "reborn /demigod/god" a legit character concept for a mage? If so, couldn't they actually have been godlings who later became a wraith, a vampire and so forth?

    Leave a comment:

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