Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Most overpowerred discipline

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by ThatOneKiasyd View Post
    This is an easy one, Necromancy. You can have wraiths do things for you like fight, or spy (Sepulchre). You can have zombies and wraiths bound to protect your haven (Sepulchre and Bones). You can create a cloud that forces torpor or suicide (Four Humors). You can become a corpse and walk in daylight (Corpse in the Monster) You can scream and lower difficulty or do agg to anyone around you or summon literally hundreds of spectres (Vitreous). You can dissolve someone (Graves Decay). You can have ghosts haunt someone into torpor or suicide (Path of Haunting). You can kill someone from afar (Level 5 Ritual). It is the best because you have the insane combat potential of instant suicide or torpor of four humors, and the versatility of wraith servants. Finally your haven is always protected.
    You made me a fan of necromancy. You really sold it to me!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Morbus View Post
      Depends. What levels are we taking into account? Dominate 10 is probably the nastier discipline existing. Literally allows you to take control of anybody, anywhere. Find a safe spot to torpor your real body and go to town.

      You can make Mages, Wolves, other vampires, and anything that has a mind you. You keep your own godly stat and get an additional body with its own power to do whatever.

      Did I say that you can use that power without ever being close to your victim? Dominate 8 allows you to Dominate anyone as long as you know where there are. Auspex or another puppet allows you to locate the target. (so you don't even need any other discipline) And said puppet can you use your Dominate powers. (hello making mathusalem your slaves using random humans... or just find where they sleep and distance dominate!)

      What's exactly the discription of dominate 10? It sound like possession, the level 5 ability. But you can do it from a far larger distance?
      Last edited by blackshade; 09-10-2020, 04:55 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by blailton View Post

        Sadly, can be countered by a single ritual.

        .

        Which ritual?

        Comment


        • #19
          Necromancy is actually really shit.

          -like thaumaturgy, it's an XP sink more than other disciplines. You look at it and think 'oh, it does all this'. No, it does all that if you spend way more time on it than you would any other power, attribute or ability.
          -Even more than thaumaturgy, Necromancy is an inherently anti-social discipline. The more you're fucking corpses trying to work out a ritual, the less you're with living people.
          -Wraith capabilities are all over the place, but are usually low.
          -wraiths aren't especially loyal and will turn on you if they get a good opportunity. Then there are spectres, and you don't know the difference till it's too late.
          -A Vampire with enough occult (auspex helps a bunch) can deal with a wraith (or you) before the wraith deals with them.
          -zombies have no place in the modern world. The living/machines outdo them in most respects.
          -A lot of it's just navel gazing.


          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

          Comment


          • #20
            For me it would have to be Bardo. Level one is the theme destroying you get to regain lost humanity with almost no cost, level two lets you dodge any supernatural effect. Methusulah level presence? Antedeluvian Dominate?+ all you need is more successes on a agility+ Occult roll. and its an agility roll so go ahead and add your celerity pool. Level 3 is animal blood is just hunky dory forever.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              -Even more than thaumaturgy, Necromancy is an inherently anti-social discipline. The more you're fucking corpses trying to work out a ritual, the less you're with living people.

              -A Vampire with enough occult (auspex helps a bunch) can deal with a wraith (or you) before the wraith deals with them.
              Smells like homebrew-itus or a terminal case of "never looked it up".

              Not all necromancy involves enslaving or forcing spirits, depending on the circumstances the ghosts can be just as much NPCs as any other supernatural. If you or your ST is only viewing Necromancy as a Giovanni sex fetish, then yeah I can see how that limited point of view could lead to that conclusion.

              Also basic Occult doesn't do much with spirits or ghosts. It is kind of the difference between reading a book that has a scene where a character undergoes open heart surgery and being an actual heart surgeon. Occult functions as the mechanical baselines for most magical abilities, but technically things like Hedge Magic are what affects the ghosts or spirits.

              In short unlike tv shows like Supernatural or Charmed, most things require a spell or working of some kind to be affective. Of course there are exceptions like werewolves and silver, but generally a random mortal can't just throw some holy water around a room or pour a salt line to hold ghosts at bay regardless of Occult score. Instead they need True Faith, Hedge Magic, etc.

              Comment


              • #22
                Find the fetter
                Destroy the fetter.
                How many dots of occult do you think you need to work that out?
                Better yet
                "I think I'm having trouble with a ghost"
                "I noticed the Giovanni doesn't like me"
                "If I put two and two together... yeah, I'm burning down his haven.'

                It's not an accident that all the Necromancers have anti-social weaknesses. The curse of ugly, a horrific bite, the need to chow down on human flesh; There are no necromancer bloodlines that don't have a weakness indicating an adversion to people, and all the other clan disciplines? The necromancers are reliant on disciplines like Dominate, Obfuscate, Potence and Fortitude to feed. There is no presence or celerity, there isn't even a line for animalism. They're inherrently anti-social bloodlines. It's not my fan-canon but the intent of the writers(Right, yeah, they don't all fuck corpses, that's just a bit of hyperbole, but they might as well)

                The powers that aren't dealing with ghosts are just stupid powers to have in modern society. They break the masquerade, they're not particularly strong, Ghouls, paid servants, machines... they do the job just as well for far less investment. While I can see the application of using ritually preserved zombies to defend your temple of doom while you sleep away the ages, you'd be better off just finding somewhere hidden.


                I don't think necromancy is necessarily the worst discipline, but it's not a contender for the strongest.


                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by blackshade View Post


                  What's exactly the discription of dominate 10? It sound like possession, the level 5 ability. But you can do it from a far larger distance?
                  Its basically "target you know of becomes a psychic doppelganger of you" complete with your memories and personality. You still run around yourself. And it can only be performed on that particular person once a year.

                  Then there's the obligatory "10 dot Plot Device" power.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post

                    The powers that aren't dealing with ghosts are just stupid powers to have in modern society. They break the masquerade, they're not particularly strong, Ghouls, paid servants, machines... they do the job just as well for far less investment.
                    I think zombies are better. They are immune to mind control disciplines.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Kael03 View Post

                      Its basically "target you know of becomes a psychic doppelganger of you" complete with your memories and personality. You still run around yourself. And it can only be performed on that particular person once a year.
                      hmm. Doesn't sound as good as creating your own alternate universe

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by blailton View Post

                        I think zombies are better. They are immune to mind control disciplines.

                        I think i would rather face a dumb zombie then a intelligent well equiped ghoul.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Zombie Statistics
                          Corpses animated by a necromancer of the
                          Bone Path have Strength 3, Dexterity 2,
                          Stamina 4, Brawl 2, and always act last in
                          a turn (unless there are mitigating circumstances).
                          They have zero Willpower points to
                          spend, but resist attacks as if they have Willpower
                          ratings of 10. All Mental and Social
                          ratings are zero for a reanimated corpse, and
                          zombies never attempt to dodge. Zombies’
                          dice pools are not affected by damage, except
                          that caused by fire or the claws and teeth of
                          supernatural creatures. Most zombies have
                          10 health levels, but they are incapable of
                          healing any damage they suffer. They have
                          no minds or personalities to affect, so they are
                          immune to uses of powers such as Dominate
                          and Presence. Unless otherwise noted, they
                          likewise cannot be usurped from the control
                          of the necromancer invoking them.
                          Zombies... if you cover them in blades and armour, they can be dangerous. If they swarm a person, they're dangerous. if they jump an unarmed person they're dangerous (I'm assuming they soak like mortals since nothing is mentioned here)

                          But most normal people can run away (They're not 'slow' zombies but they always act last in a turn, have an athletics of 0) They have a grapple (Strength+brawl) roll of five, a crush of 3, a strike (dex+brawl) 4 and a tackle (Str+athletics) of 3. They are going to do three dice of bashing a turn in a clinch (a zombie bite is, what? A regular human bite)
                          You can outsmart them easily.

                          There are three things zombies have going for them
                          -They can take an absurd amount of punishment. (do they die from decapitation? Three lethal to the head, what does that mean for them?)
                          -The ritual has no duration limit.
                          -No duration means you could really, really pile these up for mass use.

                          Now, the latter two perks are good incentives to use zombies, but in a fight you could fend them off with a man with a gun, a man with a blade, a ghouled dog, a couple of kids with hammers and high ground, a chain link fence...
                          Zombies are more a distraction, trap, or "fuck the masquerade have fun cleaning it up' kind of power. But for an urban game it's more a novelty than something you'll use to destroy your enemies. I mean, I can strap a bomb to a zombie and do some good damage but I would do that better with first level animalism or a degree of trickery and maybe second level dominate as opposed to third level corpse making (I wouldn't have to spend blood in such cases)
                          A vampire doesn't even need much stamina or fortitude or armour to really ignore zombies.


                          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by blackshade View Post

                            I think i would rather face a dumb zombie then a intelligent well equiped ghoul.
                            what about both? it's not like necromancers have lost the ability to ghoul

                            I was never interested in necromancy except for the ability to traverse the gauntlet,
                            however, I've always seen it as a discipline that could break any game,
                            not only does it give access to an otherwise impenetrable realm, sect rule also doesn't apply to the dead

                            technically, I can abuse dominate on a captured vampire to acquire information, but such an action exposes me to potential conflict with the local sect or clan or whatever,
                            but once that same vampire dies and (possibly) turns into a wraith, it's free real estate for necromancers, and they don't have to worry about retribution from the local powers-that-be for abusing a ghost

                            necromancy being weak is not an issue, because given time, a necromancer can gather knowledge from ghosts on other powers and sorceries

                            I also disagree that necromancers or sorcerers in general are anti-social,
                            all it took for the harbingers of skulls was a year to have every sabbat elders licking their boots for service,
                            sorcerers (even the weak ones) always get good connections due to the innaccessibility of sorcery to other kindred
                            Last edited by Pleiades; 09-12-2020, 07:11 AM.


                            -

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              Find the fetter
                              Destroy the fetter.
                              How many dots of occult do you think you need to work that out?
                              Better yet
                              "I think I'm having trouble with a ghost"
                              "I noticed the Giovanni doesn't like me"
                              "If I put two and two together... yeah, I'm burning down his haven.'

                              It's not an accident that all the Necromancers have anti-social weaknesses. The curse of ugly, a horrific bite, the need to chow down on human flesh; There are no necromancer bloodlines that don't have a weakness indicating an adversion to people, and all the other clan disciplines? The necromancers are reliant on disciplines like Dominate, Obfuscate, Potence and Fortitude to feed. There is no presence or celerity, there isn't even a line for animalism. They're inherrently anti-social bloodlines. It's not my fan-canon but the intent of the writers(Right, yeah, they don't all fuck corpses, that's just a bit of hyperbole, but they might as well)

                              The powers that aren't dealing with ghosts are just stupid powers to have in modern society. They break the masquerade, they're not particularly strong, Ghouls, paid servants, machines... they do the job just as well for far less investment. While I can see the application of using ritually preserved zombies to defend your temple of doom while you sleep away the ages, you'd be better off just finding somewhere hidden.


                              I don't think necromancy is necessarily the worst discipline, but it's not a contender for the strongest.

                              To be fair I don't think it's the strongest either, I am just taking exception to your commentary about it. It shows a level of dismissiveness and narrow vision, or at least it comes off as such.

                              Finding a Fetter is not that easy, it's not like they glow or otherwise reveal themselves automatically without magical aid. Trying to find a Fetter can take multiple games if not an entire chronicle to achieve. This is due to the fact that either the ghost is old enough to have very little known about them which means finding a fetter is almost impossible without magical assistance or the ghost is more modern which means you could easily be trying to find a single piece of jewelry inside a hoarders house with piles and piles of junk. If your ST just allows you to trip over the Fetter or have it be so blatant it doesn't take any investigation, then you have been robbed of most of story value of this aspect of ghosts.

                              As for idea of anti-social necromancers, you could easily say the exact same thing about Animalism. Pretty much every clan that has it tends to look monstrous or inhuman, often to the point of a masquerade violation. The one clan/bloodline that doesn't look inhuman is the Ravnos, but their clan weakness is that they have to commit crimes or vices, which basically makes them the Kender of WoD. If you have ever played D&D with a Kender character in the party, you will know exactly how hated they are because how badly they screw up party dynamics on a social level.

                              As for Necromancy in modern society, most of your complaints tend to be about how necromancy isn't an upgrade, rather than realizing that it is a side grade. Sure a military sentinel robot with a built in SAW and Grenade Launcher is just as good as a raised zombie with the same equipment and doesn't constitute a masquerade breach. However robots like that can be easily traced, they require power and maintenance. A zombie can be raised anywhere as long as you have a corpse to work with. Further more if the zombie is fresh and in relatively good shape it doesn't cause a breach. People at a distance can't tell the difference between a group of mercenaries standing at attention and a group of zombies standing at attention if they are both decked out in head to toe body armor. Unlike other fantasy games it's not like the zombies have the glowing eyes of the lich that raised them.

                              Also to be fair I have played in games where Necromancy has been used as a very important tool for masquerade preservation. My groups have used the zombie raising aspects to throw time of death by having zombies (in fresh clothes) shuffle past CCTV cameras or be seen sitting at the opera. Like so many things in gaming the true power of a mechanic is not what the mechanics say, but instead how creative the players can get while staying within those constraints. Sure you could do a lot of the same things with Dominate when the mortal was still alive, Necromancy just gives you a lot of the same benefits when the mortal is dead.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Conditionally, Necromancy is awesome.

                                But it's at the mercy of the ST, more than most of the others, in that if they're not using Wraith rules, but just sort of quickie 'ghost' templates from the back of the vampire book, your spirit servants are going to be much less versatile and potentially powerful.

                                It's also the Discipline that requires you to *learn an entirely other game* (Wraith) to get the most out of. I don't need to be able to name the Nine Spheres or tell the difference between a Tradition and a Convention and a Craft to use Thaumaturgy.

                                Super high levels of Presence are nice, as well. No need to be able to do whatever amazing thing you can do with Chimerstry or Obtenebration or whatever, if you can make anyone who *can* do those things into your bestest special friend who would do anything for you with a wink and a smile. Dominate allows more precise control, but is somewhat lessened in utility by being more active (Presence, through effects like Majesty, can affect even people you aren't aware of, like an Obfuscated enemy), and, of course, restricted to vampires lower on the blood totem pole than you.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X