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Most overpowerred discipline

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post
    I feel like most questions of this nature context matters in terms of 'over powered' since much of it is contextual. Stuff like Necromancy and Blood Magic can be quite powerful in the right context when playing to their strengths (or if we're considering the perspective of fluff vs mechanics) but if you're in a close up fight someone with high level celerity and/or potence can wipe the floor with a blood magician who isn't fully prepared.

    I think if you AREN'T putting any constraints (time, situation, etc.) on the question then Necromancy and/or Blood Magic qualify simply because they offer the most versatility through paths and rituals and given arbitrarily sufficient time and preparation they can do a ton that other disciplines can't (as Pleiades noted.) The key there is 'sufficient time and preparation' - a bit like memetic Batman.

    That's a good point, context is everything, Overpowered in one situation might be underpowered in another. You might be able to do alot with thaumaturgy and necromany under the right circumstances but it probably wont save you in a brawl when your opponent has celerity 9. You will be dead before you can even think about casting a spell.

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    • #47
      Yep. on the flip side Thaumaturgy has rituals that allow one to summon and control spirits to achieve effects on the scale of 9-dot disciplines at considerably lower levels. But they take lots of time and are dangerous to use.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Orkar View Post
        I think wed have to dissect the question to answer it properly. Most powerfull in which context?

        10 Dot Disciplines are all crazy powerfull and unobtainable for player characters as well. So sure chimestry 10 is basicly the equicalent of true magick (Mage) without fear of Paradox. Who wouldnt be jealous of that?
        Anyone with Dominate 10. (Ventrue, and maybe Lasombra?)

        Why invest so much in pretend true magick, when you can get the real thing? Become a Mage, and a Changeling, and a wraith and maybe a Tremere too if you really fancy Thaumaturgy.

        It's not like there is any real limit here... Well I guess animals are immune to Dominate.

        Edit: Not a problem. Add a Gangrel to your puppet collection.
        Last edited by Morbus; 09-21-2020, 02:22 PM.

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        • #49
          I am pretty sure that high willpower individuals and in special mages can fight against Dominate 10

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          • #50
            Which is why you don't pick high willpower individuals. Take a young promising mage and make him you. You're a vampire. Heck an antediluvian. You have all the time you need to nurture your new body (bodies), and make a (many) archmages out of him (them).

            Meanwhile you can Dominate a few Werewolf pack to become you're informal royal guard. Or I don't know make your Brujah slave diablerize you so people believe you are dead or other shenanigan of the sort only Ventrue can pull off. (Basically diablerize yourself...eww)

            Heck Dominate a Ravnos if you like Chimestry so much.
            Last edited by Morbus; 09-22-2020, 06:15 AM.

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            • #51
              well dominate can also be countered by some rites, hunters, true faith....and no i dont like chimestry that much 8can also be coutned by any coutnermagic) ^^see my post before

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              • #52
                The problem with Dominate and Presence is that they're easily outdone by Resources.


                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Orkar View Post
                  well dominate can also be countered by some rites, hunters, true faith....and no i dont like chimestry that much 8can also be coutned by any coutnermagic) ^^see my post before

                  Like... all discipline? We are talking about what is the most op discipline you can have. Not which one is invincible.

                  And no a beginner mage/werewolf cannot resist the power of a antediluvian Dominate. So that's not really a compelling counterargument to my point. You can Dominate a young mage a completely erase his personality to get your own there. You don't need to bother Dominating stronger supernaturals. You can just play Pokemon instead. Much easier and much more satisfying imo.

                  The most op discipline you can have is the one that can get you access to all other disciplines. And potentially other supernaturals powers on top. We call it Dominate.

                  You don't even need Dominate 10 to achieve this tbh. Even a smart Ancillae can get a lot done with Dominate 2-3-4-5. It's just that Dominate 10 negates all the downsides of the discipline (need contact- can be broken- need specific instructions- can be resisted with Willpower- need to spend Willpower etc.) and literally gives you complete and definitive control over another body. Anyone with some rpg experience should know that that power is utterly broken.

                  You literally do away with xp/action/vampiric limitation. Since you can have a potentially infinite amount of bodies all "leveling" up in whatever sphere you care about. (in parallel! Or worse in tandem!!!)

                  Thankfully it is an antediluvian only power and one that was mastered by supposedly now dead vampire(s?). Which is good because the Jyhad would have been done a long time ago with such a huge cap between the 10 levels of discipline.
                  Last edited by Morbus; 09-22-2020, 04:45 PM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Morbus View Post
                    Like... all discipline? We are talking about what is the most op discipline you can have. Not which one is invincible.
                    good so chimestry again - you want to be ana ctual real mage? a werewolf? immortal? - bam its now reality. You want to have dominate 10 too? bam its now reality.

                    Temporis is an XP loophole that you can use as timeloop to get infinite XP, wealth and ofc escape death any time if we talk RPG style and would thus be the most OP discipline of all cause you literally can grind for infinity and "age" trumps all in Vampire. A true brujah can be million of years old when everyone else is just a lame 10k.

                    Thaumaturgy 10 was never specified but given the versatility of the discipline i wouldnt be surprised if thaumaturgy 10 would be able to mimick ALL other disciplineson that same level or turn you into a wielder of true magic.

                    Auspex 10 is similiar to Temporis just that its only your mind travelling but youc an also influence others and thus change time and events as you like and similiar to dominate 10, gain access to any discipline you want. Even through time. Hey ever wanted to become Caine? Travel back a bit and you can.

                    And while Daimonion 10 kills you, unleasing an elder god on the world is pretty much ending the gameworld for good, fck antedeluvians, mages, werewolfs etc.

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                    • #55
                      [QUOTE=Orkar;n1413799]
                      Originally posted by blackshade View Post


                      The Dravon was "attacked" by the Tzimisce (the eldest) and reduced to a puddle of blood that the Antedeluvian devoured. The Dracon befiorehweand though impregnated Vykos with his seed and formed an Embroy which he transfered parts of his soul to - and was thus born anew
                      Got the order of things wrong. Dracon told Tzimisce he was tired of living and wanted to just be done. Tzimisce then turned Dracon into a blob, ate him, then raped/impregnated Vykos.

                      Also, for Dominate 10. It's not a "once a year in general" limit. It's a "once a year for that specific victim" limit. Provided you have the blood for it, you can hit up multiple targets to become you at once.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by rat_bastard View Post
                        For me it would have to be Bardo. Level one is the theme destroying you get to regain lost humanity with almost no cost, level two lets you dodge any supernatural effect. Methusulah level presence? Antedeluvian Dominate?+ all you need is more successes on a agility+ Occult roll. and its an agility roll so go ahead and add your celerity pool. Level 3 is animal blood is just hunky dory forever.
                        This person gets it.

                        Sure, it doesn't let you turn people into puppets, summon the forces of nature, walk unseen in the world, change the course of the Jyhad, or tear a person to pieces with your bare hands.

                        But if you want to protect your Humanity and get out of situations where you'd potentially risk it, Bardo is VERY good at that. For a high Humanity "build" - the hardest of hard modes as far as VtM is concerned - it's practically cheating.

                        Why risk hunting people, when Bardo 3 lets you get three nights' worth of blood from a single rat? For that alone, the Children of Osiris are extremely efficient. The only reason you wouldn't try to rush to this level is if you either had terminally low Humanity to begin with (your Bardo score can't exceed your Humanity), or you were a Ventrue and thus retain your specific blood preference.

                        I would be remiss to forget Pillar of Osiris. A functioning Pillar gives anyone with Bardo 1+ a -3 to difficulty for all Disciplines (including Bardo 1's "Restore Humanitas" ability) and any other mystical power (including all Blood Sorcery). It's only while in the Pillar's presence, but that still allows for the character to be an absolute beast when it comes to ritual magic. While they may not have the most well-studied Blood Sorcerers (compared to every other vampire sect), I can imagine the Children of Osiris have some of the most potent ones in terms of application of magic, solely from this power.


                        The Children of Osiris would probably be a fairly dangerous force in the Jyhad, if their ethos, goals, and ethics weren't geared towards avoiding it as much as possible. To be fair, though, the ability to stay out of the Jyhad is, itself, an impressive feat, and a sound survival strategy.

                        It's such a shame that avoiding all vampire business is typically extremely boring.

                        ST: "What does your Child of Osiris character do now, player?"
                        Player: "He spends the next year in the temple working on his pottery, tending to his rat farm, and meditating."
                        ST: "Outstanding."


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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Orkar View Post

                          good so chimestry again - you want to be ana ctual real mage? a werewolf? immortal? - bam its now reality. You want to have dominate 10 too? bam its now reality.
                          Originally posted by Orkar View Post
                          I am pretty sure that high willpower individuals and in special mages can fight against Chimestry
                          ​​
                          Originally posted by Orkar View Post
                          well chimestry can also be countered by some rites, hunters, true faith....and no i dont like chimestry that much 8can also be coutned by any coutnermagic) ^^see my post before
                          Fixed.

                          Do I need to add more? Oh yes Chimestry doesn't make it "reality". It can creates realistic illusion but they remain such even if made permanent. There is only a single Chimestry power that make illusion "real" and it's only temporary and have very stringent rules on what illusion you can make,

                          And Chimestry cannot make you into any of those. Nor grant you Dominate 10. Make weaker minded people believe you have such power? Maybe, but doesn't change the fact you cannot access those powers.

                          Also Chimestry does not have the reach that Dominate 8 grants you. You still have the see the victims or the object you wish to use Chimestry on. With all the risks it entails.

                          No idea why people think that Discipline is so op at high level. It's basically useless against any vampire with Auspex. And all Metuselah have at least 5 dot in there. (or they are really idiots)


                          Temporis is an XP loophole that you can use as timeloop to get infinite XP, wealth and ofc escape death any time if we talk RPG style and would thus be the most OP discipline of all cause you literally can grind for infinity and "age" trumps all in Vampire. A true brujah can be million of years old when everyone else is just a lame 10k.
                          Good so Dominate 10 a true brujah and now get thousands of vampire with Temporis farming xp. Age is great, but Dominate 10 is antidulivian only tough.

                          Thaumaturgy 10 was never specified but given the versatility of the discipline i wouldnt be surprised if thaumaturgy 10 would be able to mimick ALL other disciplineson that same level or turn you into a wielder of true magic.
                          Probably not. Considering Thaumaturgy above level 5 only gets you rituals. We do have a Thaumaturgy 10 ritual tough. Invernurable Weakness. Which makes you immune to any form of heat, light (yes including the sun) and fire for a number of years. A potent power to be sure. Clearly better than Dominate 5 but I'd say Dominate 10 is still far better.

                          Auspex 10 is similiar to Temporis just that its only your mind travelling but youc an also influence others and thus change time and events as you like and similar to dominate 10, gain access to any discipline you want. Even through time. Hey ever wanted to become Caine? Travel back a bit and you can.
                          You'll have to explain more throughly how Auspex 10 allows you to become Caine. Because I don't see any Auspex that can do anything resembling what you affirm it can do. I am aware that one power allows you to see past event (altough I don't remember which) but not changing the past in any way, nor can Auspex allows you to control anybody directly. Although you may share a body with a mortal only with stealing the mind's eye.

                          Auspex is my favorite discipline after Dominate tough. It really is a potent "counter" discipline especially against powers like Chimestry, Temporis, Presence or even Dominate. And coupled with Dominate you can do some bad bad things since you juste increased your reach tenfold.

                          And while Daimonion 10 kills you, unleashing an elder god on the world is pretty much ending the gameworld for good, fck antedeluvians, mages, werewolfs etc.
                          I agree. Daimonon 10 is more powerful than Dominate 10... if you manage to pull it off. It's not like there was a lack of trying mind you. But the requirements are nothing to sneeze at. While Dominate 10 is trivially easy as long as you pick your victim right (it also helps that Dominate 3-4 can soften your victims if you really need it).

                          But yes Armaggedon is more powerful than Puppet horde. Mostly because you only need to use it once to achieve the Apocalypse while even a Nihilist minded Ventrue would have to work to get there. It does kill you tough... so yeah?

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Orkar View Post

                            good so chimestry again - you want to be an actual real mage? a werewolf? immortal? - bam its now reality. You want to have dominate 10 too? bam its now reality.
                            Chimerstry 10 "only" allows you to trap people physically in an imaginary world of your design. It doesn't really give you access to anything in that world in the real and doesn't take away the powers of those trapped inside.

                            Originally posted by Orkar View Post
                            Temporis is an XP loophole that you can use as timeloop to get infinite XP, wealth and ofc escape death any time if we talk RPG style and would thus be the most OP discipline of all cause you literally can grind for infinity and "age" trumps all in Vampire. A true brujah can be million of years old when everyone else is just a lame 10k.
                            Infinite XP/etc. is stretching it considering you can't go very far back in time(only rounds-days at most at the highest levels) and you go back to how your body was when you were at that time(which also means the same level of XP, disciplines and backgrounds)

                            Originally posted by Orkar View Post
                            Thaumaturgy 10 was never specified but given the versatility of the discipline i wouldnt be surprised if thaumaturgy 10 would be able to mimick ALL other disciplineson that same level or turn you into a wielder of true magic.
                            It was specified, the level 10 ritual for Thaum makes you immune to all vampiric weaknesses except true faith for up to stamina + occult years. it also makes your blood give the same benefits for 24 hours per blood point. Like the other 10s, it's the Only specified level 10 ritual and the text assumes Tremere has it.

                            Originally posted by Orkar View Post
                            Auspex 10 is similiar to Temporis just that its only your mind travelling but youc an also influence others and thus change time and events as you like and similiar to dominate 10, gain access to any discipline you want. Even through time. Hey ever wanted to become Caine? Travel back a bit and you can.
                            I'm confused here. The only specified power for Auspex 10 allows you to predict possible futures based on knowing all current events across the globe.

                            Originally posted by Orkar View Post
                            And while Daimonion 10 kills you, unleasing an elder god on the world is pretty much ending the gameworld for good, fck antedeluvians, mages, werewolfs etc.
                            Daimonion 9 does that too considering ​Daimonion 9 and 10 are mostly the same power with different wording.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                              Chimerstry 10 "only" allows you to trap people physically in an imaginary world of your design. It doesn't really give you access to anything in that world in the real and doesn't take away the powers of those trapped inside.
                              [Anything] 10 is a plot device that does whatever the GM wants for the story to work. Which, I should note, is also how any level of the elder disciplines works, but let's not talk about that. The only question relevant to the level 10 powers is "Would the story work if it did that?"

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                                [Anything] 10 is a plot device that does whatever the GM wants for the story to work. Which, I should note, is also how any level of the elder disciplines works, but let's not talk about that. The only question relevant to the level 10 powers is "Would the story work if it did that?"
                                ...Personally I ignore the Gehenna books if I can. From placing [Ventrue]'s death before a number of 4th gens were embraced, retconning large chunks of meta-plot, and making players into spectators in their own game session, I generally hate most of what came out of those books.

                                I'll stick with the 2nd edition statted out powers. They're clearly defined, in that they have actual mechanics, and have limitations that players can work around rather than be put on the spectator bench or railroaded into to the exact specific thing the ST/Author wants rather than being able to have agency.

                                More to the subject of the thread, [Plot Device] is going to be the most powerful power because it's whatever the ST wants. Potence 10 could let Brujah create chocolate icecream with his elbows if the ST wanted that, so it's I find it just as useless to the discussion at hand as I do ST-ing the gaming table.

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