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Obtenebration or Oblivion?

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  • Obtenebration or Oblivion?

    So, what discipline do you prefer and why?

  • #2
    neither

    obtenebration had the cool factor, but too many powers were locked into the 6+ levels

    oblivion lacks punch, I like my obtenebration a bit more brutal and...cinematic? if you get my meaning


    -

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    • #3
      I never had enough interest in playing a Lasombra or a necromancer to have an opinion on the mechanics of either discipline, but I appreciate how Oblivion settles the issue with the number of Abysses the World of Darkness had acquired over the years.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by trueann View Post
        So, what discipline do you prefer and why?
        I admit to bias because I've often played Necromancers with Obternation.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          I don't wanna be too hostile here but what rational person would seriously look at oblivion and think 'yeah, this is way improved, the lasombra are gonna love this, I as a storyteller am going to love this'

          I mean yeah, Obtenebration was Stronk, possibly too stronk, and it could very well have done with a nerf, but Oblivion's a bad joke.
          Also, V5 ruined necromancy with oblivion so it gets a stain for that too.

          From a storytelling perspective, it's a bad move too. The Abyss was a realm of mystery. Having the book unceremoniously 'solve' (IE get shit horribly wrong) that mystery denies the Lasombra a good deal of potential development.


          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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          • #6
            Obetenebration all the F'n way...

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            • #7
              Conceptually, I prefer Oblivion because the connection between the Abyss, the world of the dead, the Lasombra, the Hecata and resonance-free vitae implies that kindred in general have some sort of natural affinity with a process of cosmic decay that returns things to primordial nothingness. Whereas the connection between Lasombra (the antedeluvian himself) and the Obtenebration looks random like most bloodline disciplines from Requiem 1e. Although it's rather costly for its practical applications, compared to other disciplines.

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              • #8
                Obtenebration ftw

                It was an interesting concept it's void-ish relation towards Necromancy, not convicing enough though.

                - Saga

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Reasor View Post
                  I never had enough interest in playing a Lasombra or a necromancer to have an opinion on the mechanics of either discipline, but I appreciate how Oblivion settles the issue with the number of Abysses the World of Darkness had acquired over the years.
                  Necromancy never had anything to do with the Abyss at all, the various Paths related to Necromancy was explicitly Low Umbric aligned. Lasombra by LARGE are the only Vampires who dealt with whatever the "Abyss" is (because we still don't know concretely) so what you insinuate doesn't make any sense. It resolves no "issues" and the make-up of the Oblivion technique was a method to kill "two birds with one stone," -Find an excuse to decimate the signature technique of the Lasombra for whatever reason and another fold to just decimate Necromancy for no reason. So your to tell me that all of sudden whatever this Hecata thing is now (what is called as a "Sect," but really its a lazy mash up Giovanni 2.0 where even the Samedi no longer even have their clan curse, lol) has lost untold amounts of millennia knowledge concerning Necromancy for whatever Oblivion is? It's so lorebreaking and nonsensical that ironically none of the "Necromantic" clans within this (Clan) Sect cannot even raise zombies if we take RAW into account.


                  Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                  • #10
                    Conceptually Oblivion, I think the Abyss was a neat idea that failed to amount to anything as it never became more than just 'the shadow plane' (except in v20 dark ages where abyss mysticism was actually kinda cool) and had too much thematic overlap with necromancy, so mixing them together makes sense to me, particularly since V5 has been all about merging abilities that were different only for the sake of establishing their differences and overall I've been pretty positive about the merging of disciplines.
                    Making shadow-conjuring necromancers and necromantic Lasombra (particularly with the macabre imagery tied into the catholic church and it's history with necromantic practices) are ideas that are rife with possibility and I was really looking forward to what I would see.

                    However theory and execution are not the same things and Oblivion is not very impressive, it generates stains too easily (and I hate having discipline abilities that are objectively evil, what's the point of chronicle tenants if the game is going to overrule you) and the way the necromancy rituals were worked into it is... not good, seriously far more complicated than how they handled blood sorcery and far less impressive. I do like some of the alternate low level effects but in the end I feel it has far more style than substance, but far less style than it's predecessor. Considering how straightforward the other disciplines are it's almost bizarre why they made this one so... odd.
                    Last edited by Darkfoxdev; 09-14-2020, 03:24 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Conceptually I defo prefer Oblivion for the reasons stated by other people. However, I am really troubled by the points raised by Darkfoxdev (Oblivion is now objectively “evil”) and Shakanaka (none of the Hecata clans can even raise zombies anymore). Basically I would keep the name and conceptual structure of Oblivion but change a few of the core details.


                      The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                      • #12
                        What's better:
                        30 simple and clearly defined disciplines with strong thematic confines to them, only 10 of which have regular importance. You obtain the same 1-5 powers as everyone else having this discipline, and you can't miss out on anything because your only barrier to power was time, so you only need to think about which three in-clans you get at character creation and didn't need to plan out a min-maxing scheme and worry about which power you'll get in what order.
                        Or 10 very convoluted disciplines with the potential function of 30 disciplines, though you're getting less function out of disciplines because they're weaker and many powers that used to be a combination of things have now been split up... Now you've got way more personalization (overchoice) because you can choose between heightened senses and seeing the unseen instead of just getting them both with one purchase, and you need to plan for what disciplines to get because you're only allowed 5 a power and a wrong choice can have you forever unable to obtain certain powers forever.... Is this a leading question or is it just really obvious as to which method was better?

                        Getting stains for using oblivion is fucking stupid.

                        Lasombra got fucking destroyed this edition. Went from one of my favourite clans to utter shite. Obtenebration; Destroyed. Dominate: destroyed. Potence? Destroyed. Weakness? Destroyed.


                        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          What's better:
                          30 simple and clearly defined disciplines with strong thematic confines to them, only 10 of which have regular importance. You obtain the same 1-5 powers as everyone else having this discipline, and you can't miss out on anything because your only barrier to power was time, so you only need to think about which three in-clans you get at character creation and didn't need to plan out a min-maxing scheme and worry about which power you'll get in what order.
                          Or 10 very convoluted disciplines with the potential function of 30 disciplines, though you're getting less function out of disciplines because they're weaker and many powers that used to be a combination of things have now been split up... Now you've got way more personalization (overchoice) because you can choose between heightened senses and seeing the unseen instead of just getting them both with one purchase, and you need to plan for what disciplines to get because you're only allowed 5 a power and a wrong choice can have you forever unable to obtain certain powers forever.... Is this a leading question or is it just really obvious as to which method was better?

                          Getting stains for using oblivion is fucking stupid.

                          Lasombra got fucking destroyed this edition. Went from one of my favourite clans to utter shite. Obtenebration; Destroyed. Dominate: destroyed. Potence? Destroyed. Weakness? Destroyed.
                          Very leading lol. But that being said, you make a good argument. And I also don’t like making Oblivion inherently evil.


                          The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                          • #14
                            I don't think Oblivion is supposed be inherently evil. When a user gets a stain I imagine that one of two things is happening:
                            1. The experience of touching Oblivion makes everything they value as a person, including humanity (in any sense of the word), their sense of self, their convictions and everyone they hold dear, seem abjectly insignificant and transitory. This can then lead to detachment.
                            2. Oblivion mystically siphons off part of them, like their ego or soul that affords them the capacity for Humanity.

                            It's playing with something destructive, like fire, and there isn't a safe way to do it. Still I think it's worth considering swapping the stain for aggravated willpower damage, which Lasombra and Hecata could be remarkably well equipped to recover with the pursuit of their ambitions.

                            Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                            (none of the Hecata clans can even raise zombies anymore)
                            What do you mean, isn't that what Shambling Hordes does?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
                              I don't think Oblivion is supposed be inherently evil. When a user gets a stain I imagine that one of two things is happening:
                              1. The experience of touching Oblivion makes everything they value as a person, including humanity (in any sense of the word), their sense of self, their convictions and everyone they hold dear, seem abjectly insignificant and transitory. This can then lead to detachment.
                              2. Oblivion mystically siphons off part of them, like their ego or soul that affords them the capacity for Humanity.

                              It's playing with something destructive, like fire, and there isn't a safe way to do it. Still I think it's worth considering swapping the stain for aggravated willpower damage, which Lasombra and Hecata could be remarkably well equipped to recover with the pursuit of their ambitions.



                              What do you mean, isn't that what Shambling Hordes does?
                              Okay. I forgot about Shambling Hordes. And I like your reasoning how Oblivion isn’t inherently evil. Overall I definitely still prefer V5 Oblivion, but I was troubled by certain mechanical points people raised and I can see valid arguments on both sides of those points.


                              The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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