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Obtenebration or Oblivion?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
    I don't think Oblivion is supposed be inherently evil. When a user gets a stain I imagine that one of two things is happening:
    1. The experience of touching Oblivion makes everything they value as a person, including humanity (in any sense of the word), their sense of self, their convictions and everyone they hold dear, seem abjectly insignificant and transitory. This can then lead to detachment.
    2. Oblivion mystically siphons off part of them, like their ego or soul that affords them the capacity for Humanity.

    It's playing with something destructive, like fire, and there isn't a safe way to do it. Still I think it's worth considering swapping the stain for aggravated willpower damage, which Lasombra and Hecata could be remarkably well equipped to recover with the pursuit of their ambitions.



    What do you mean, isn't that what Shambling Hordes does?
    I don't think so. When you gain a stain, later you make a degeneration test. If you succeed, you feel GUILTY and then don't lose humanity. If Oblivion is not evil in this system why would you feel guilty about using it even if no one was hurt?

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    • #17
      Also guys, what version of Lasombta weakness do you like more?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by trueann View Post
        Also guys, what version of Lasombta weakness do you like more?
        There are two lasombra weakness, one where they don't have reflections and one where they also suffer a little more in the light but not as severly as the setites.

        An allergy to technology is absurdist nonsense. How did that work centuries ago? Did painters spaz out when painting a lasombra portrait? Did the colours refuse to hold? Did Lasombra produce no sound when they blew horns or played instruments? What person would give the clan of proud individualists a dependence on having some dweeb take their phonecalls for them?

        Someone who hates lasombra and wants them gone from the game.

        So, of the two weaknesses, I like the simple No-Reflection weakness. Horrifically limiting in a night time urban environment; Large Shop windows keep you out of vast swaths of the urban environment. Being around cars and their mirrors is a masquerade risk, and going out at night when the concrete is wet? Oh boi. You kinda have to wear all black to mitigate this somewhat, and even then it's not good enough. A greater weakness is not necessary.
        Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 09-15-2020, 05:00 AM.


        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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        • #19
          "There are two lasombra weakness, one where they don't have reflections and one where they also suffer a little more in the light but not as severly as the setites."
          As I understand it, lasombra have reflection in V5, but it's distort, flicker, or transparent.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post

            There are two lasombra weakness, one where they don't have reflections and one where they also suffer a little more in the light but not as severly as the setites.

            An allergy to technology is absurdist nonsense. How did that work centuries ago? Did painters spaz out when painting a lasombra portrait? Did the colours refuse to hold? Did Lasombra produce no sound when they blew horns or played instruments? What person would give the clan of proud individualists a dependence on having some dweeb take their phonecalls for them?

            Someone who hates lasombra and wants them gone from the game.

            So, of the two weaknesses, I like the simple No-Reflection weakness. Horrifically limiting in a night time urban environment; Large Shop windows keep you out of vast swaths of the urban environment. Being around cars and their mirrors is a masquerade risk, and going out at night when the concrete is wet? Oh boi. You kinda have to wear all black to mitigate this somewhat, and even then it's not good enough. A greater weakness is not necessary.
            About your second paragraph: the first two examples don’t really count, painted portraits and musical instruments aren’t high tech, but the third one is VERY true. (And made me laugh 😂.) I would keep the Lasombra weakness as no reflection but change it like trueann said to their reflection being “distorted, flickering or transparent.” (A little less obvious plus it makes it more Gothic.)


            The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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            • #21
              I like the principles of the V5 Lasombra weakness, but the execution is either too heavy handed or unclearly written. I've emphasised my issues with it here:

              "While all vampires lose something profound at their Embrace, the Lasombra exhibit the most telling signs of this spiritual deficiency. When viewed in a reflective surface or a recording medium, their image appears distorted, sometimes almost invisible. Whether flickering, twisted on transparent, their reflection betrays their undead state and lineage. Similarly, modern technology relying on touch or other form of direct interaction a. tends to glitch or simple act unresponsive to Magisters, and electronic detection systems easily pick up the tell-tale signs of their passing.

              Anyone seeing the reflection or recording (live and otherwise) of a Lasombra vampire can instantly recognize them for what they are, provided they know what they’re looking for. People with no prior knowledge will know something is wrong, but likely attribute the distortion to irregularities in the reflecting surface or recording errors. Note that this will not hide the identity of the vampire with any certainty, and the Lasombra are no less likely to be caught on surveillance than any other vampire. In addition, use of modern communication technology, including making a simple phone call, requires a Technology test at Difficulty 2 b. + Bane Severity as microphones have similar problems with the voice of a Lasombra as cameras with their image. Avoiding electronic vampire detection systems is also done at a penalty equal to Bane Severity."

              a. What does this cover? Touch screens? Buttons? Levers? Steering wheels? A weakness to manipulating mechanical systems seems excessive to me and distinct from reflective surfaces and recording media. Note that the crunch lines in the next paragraph don't mention this again, only cameras and microphones.

              b. Why? How do Lasombra apply their understanding of technology to overcome this progressive problem caused by a "spiritual deficiency". Do they learn from practice the way to handle devices? Are they modifying the hardware or software to improve the quality of the response?


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              • #22
                Originally posted by trueann View Post
                Also guys, what version of Lasombta weakness do you like more?
                I kinda like both, with a slight preference for the new one

                the old one was one of the few weaknesses you could really have some mad fun with, especially with some disciplines like obtenebration and obfuscate (the revised version in particular, which had no range limit)

                the new one is cooler imo, with lasombra flickering in and out of reality,
                BUT, oblivion as written isn't good enough to cover for it...shame

                a. What does this cover? Touch screens? Buttons? Levers? Steering wheels? A weakness to manipulating mechanical systems seems excessive to me and distinct from reflective surfaces and recording media. Note that the crunch lines in the next paragraph don't mention this again, only cameras and microphones.
                yeah, I'd limit it to touch screens and maybe buttons

                though I'd definitely expand to levers and wheels for Tremere,
                their magic doesn't coexist well with technology causing machine to malfunction in their presence,
                like it is with mages in the Arcanum game
                Last edited by Pleiades; 09-15-2020, 05:40 PM.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
                  I like the principles of the V5 Lasombra weakness, but the execution is either too heavy handed or unclearly written.


                  Way you've written it here just sounds like an ST is being an asshole

                  'Technology doesn't work for you but it works really well when it's against you'


                  The new weakness is entirely antithetical to the lasombra playstyle. The stereotype is a control freak paranoid narcisist who uses everyone but trusts no-one. you stay in the shadows pulling the strings and when you go in you go in hard.

                  and now my ghoul jef has to take my calls for me. The clan weakness might as well be 'you must hide under a skirt and can only drink blood whilst on your knees in a submissive posture'

                  clan weaknesses should encourage you to play a certain way. This tech weakness encourages a playstile completely antithetical to how the lasombra have been im every other edition. It's a complete emasculation of the goal oriented, competitive, individualist clan. I can only conclude that they writer really hated the clan and what it stood for and wanted to tear them down.


                  Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                  • #24
                    I would keep the distorted reflection part and drop the technology weakness part (it’s way too harsh for a clan that prides itself on keeping up with the times, which includes technological developments).


                    The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                    • #25
                      I'd just treat it like the BBC miniseries Ultraviolet treated it—the lack of reflection preventing electronics from picking up sound made by the vampire or touchscreens registering contact, as if the vampire is a particularly solid ghost. But keyboards, electric appliances (including text-to-speech devices), basically anything relying on mechanical manipulation rather than a machine "sensing" the Lasombra would work just the same as for anyone else.

                      I think I like Oblivion better than Obtenebration: more versatile, less overwhelmingly powerful. Ceremonies need to be fixed so that whole fields of necromantic magic don't become mutually exclusive thanks to discipline power prerequisites, though.

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                      • #26
                        Neither. Obtenebration in my games is a variant branch of Obfuscate instead, with "solid shadow/darkness hentacles" and powers in that more gonzo vein being occult rites of my version of the Angelis Ater. Same goes for Chimerstry too, in fact. Have been doing that discipline streamlining long before V5, long before V3 in fact (damn, feeling old now).

                        On the plus side, "Obtenebration rituals & combos" make great excuses to relocate level 6+ powers down into the 1-5 range.
                        Last edited by Baaldam; 09-15-2020, 11:50 PM.

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                        • #27
                          By the way, considering typical automatic doors with motion sensors in every supermarket, what with lasombra shopping?
                          Last edited by trueann; 09-16-2020, 01:30 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by trueann View Post
                            By the way, considering typical automatic doors with motion sensors in every supermarket, what with lasombra shopping?
                            why would motion sensors not work?


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                              why would motion sensors not work?
                              Because of the Lasombra clan bane.

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                              • #30
                                One could argue that motion sensors wouldn't pick up Hollow Mekhet or Ultraviolet vampires, but I think that they would work for V5 Lasombra; electronic detection systems can sense them, it just gets messed up in some way.

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