Obtenebration or Oblivion?

[MyWifeIsScary]

Why can't Obtenebration's abyss be from it's own realm? There's a bajilion realms in the middle Umbra dedicated to very specific things; realms of constant war, a realm of super technology, a realm where you walk the surface of the sun, a realm that's an endlessy large mental hospital, a realm that recreates the cretaceous... and I don't even have an idea as to the range and scale of the high umbra, which is built on ideas

Also, with the explanations i've heard in prior editions; A realm outside of creation, or something pilfered from Lilith's garden, lasombra himself... As high-up as people put lilith, she's not the source of the entropic force at the end of creation. The Abyss, as Fuck-Off-Dangerous as it is, just doesn't seem as toxic as Oblivion-The-Maw-Eating-At-The-World. I mean Obtenebration should be too-dangerous-to-use if it was, especially because masters are supposed to be able to dive into the realm and if it's oblivion.... yeesh, might as well jump into fire.

[archderd]

oblivion is just bad regardless of what system you prefer. it feels like 2 disciplines sharing a name because they set out to get rid of unique clan disciplines and it's too late to turn back now.

and the whole inherently evil thing is just silly

[Shakanaka]

The Abyss was a NEAR REALM aka in the Middle-Umbra. It's literally directly mentioned as Near Realm you can go to into in Werewolf at Chapter 2 of W20 - Umbra - The Velvet Shadows as the first Realm described and p.329 of the core of W20 also lists the Abyss as a Near Realm in the Spirit world. If it was in the Low Umbra, it would've been mentioned as such- but it ISN'T. Spectres aren't described as being the in the Abyss, no mention of the Labyrinth, or the Tempest... I still fail to see how they are the same. And the Neverborn literally have nothing to do with the "Fallen/Elohim", they spawned as soon as Life separated from Death instantaneously- they have nothing to even do with D:TF. Also WHEN have the Lasombra contacted Demons unless it was some OC Chronicle involving infernalism?

The only Vampires who have dealt with Demons extensively have been the Baali and Tzimisce with the one off thing involving the Kupala (and barring the Kupala who is an Earthbound.. no doubt a concept from V:TM that D:TF happily brought into its fold for ideas, the Demons the Baali have consorted with and contacted have been ACTIVE for a long time in the setting AKA not locked up in the "Abyss" written up in D:TF's hackery. I even remember that apparently the Baali with the aid of Demons sparked a massive 1st or 2nd city war against Caine, his childer, and their own childer before. D:TF never mentions any of this. Its really funny that D:TF went on this entire cosmological "break down" of how the setting "came to be" but it has a HUGE bunch of plotholes)... Most of D:TF was simply a hack job that scrumbled up the setting with nonsensical things.

Oblivion ISN'T a force. It's simply is. Its just pure nothingness. How can something that is permanently inactive can be a force of destruction? It doesn't cause a damn thing- the Wyrm is what is an ACTIVE force for either corrupting or destroying things; and that is an ACTUAL aware entity unlike what Oblivion is.

Also from the Lasombra Clanbook directly;

For many Obtenebration practitioners, the Abyss is simply the conceptual realm from which they draw shadow-stuff. A handful of Lasombra probe deeper, finding layer upon layer of mystery in that endless blackness

Here we see that the book says the Abyss is a REALM and from there they draw "shadow-stuff" aka what fuels their Obtenebration. There is NOTHING to draw from Oblivion, so its nonsensical to say Obtenebration had to do with the absolute nothingness that was Oblivion. There isn't any darkness or shadow in a place devoid of that concept, how could the Lasombra draw "shadow-stuff" from it when by this notion we can discern the discussed former is an object of some sort.

Also again, the Abyss has some form of INTELLIGENCE, which Oblivion is completely absent of since it isn't an entity whatsoever. The Lasombra Clanborn directly corrobates this:

Intelligence exists in the Abyss. It does not possess self-awareness or even identity in any comprehensible sense. Fragments of knowledge and passion come together for a time, then break apart. The mind within the Abyss is some ways more like a computer capable of emotion as well as logic than a sentient entity, a pool of resources executing instructions provided by some unknown force

Oblivion on the otherhand from WTO is completely absent of all that. To even align that it has even some figments of knowledge or "passion" (which Passion is a mechanic in WTO and is literally what staves you from Oblivion in the first pace) would be an antithesis of the concept itself. Oblivion is nothing devoid of anything.

Funnily enough further in the passage I'm finding it directly says that Arms of the Abyss directly uses the Abyss' intelligence to make the shadow-stuff arms to function; which basically confirms what I said earlier as correct- Obtenebration drew straight from the Abyss itself, a Near-Realm, but not Oblivion because Oblivion doesn't have intelligence or even a minutiae of awareness.

Arms of the Abyss can draw out portions of the Abyss intelligence, when coupled with proper occult preparation.

Not only THAT for a double whammy for this, the book directly gives you mechanics for entering the Abyss and it literally tells you to treat it as entering the Astral Plane on the same page. And again there is NO possible way to enter Oblivion, because once you're inside you don't exist anymore. The Abyss has more similarities with the Middle and High Umbra than it does with the Low Umbra by large margins. Not only that it says that you'll only encounter Abyss Spirits.

If each step works, he passes into the Abyss, in the Obtenebration equivalent of Psychic Projection. He also risks encountering Abyss spirits.

No mention of Spectres, the Labyrinth, Tempest, or the Well of the Void from Doomsplayers - Into the Labyrinth; the massive chamber that SURROUNDS Oblivion from above, but nowhere in it at all. Not once has the Lasombra even described the Abyss with any characteristics as the Low Umbra other than it being a morbid place, which both realms certainly are- but even places in the High Umbra can be scary.

EDIT: and this is not Bashing this is criticism at a few choices in the setting that just don't make sense at all.

I genuinely feel this merger of Obtenebration and Necromancy was just simply done because "oh dark and scarrry so they MUST be the same"... There is literally no reason for these Disciplines to merge and for the Lasombra to have vast knowledges of Necromancy clan-wide all of a sudden for no reason; or the various Necromancers losing vast millennia worth of insights, knowledges, and different Paths of Necromancy for a simplified beatdown that is the "Oblivion" technique in V5.

[CTPhipps]

Why can't Obtenebration's abyss be from it's own realm? There's a bajilion realms in the middle Umbra dedicated to very specific things; realms of constant war, a realm of super technology, a realm where you walk the surface of the sun, a realm that's an endlessy large mental hospital, a realm that recreates the cretaceous... and I don't even have an idea as to the range and scale of the high umbra, which is built on ideas

Probably because I prefer a deeply detailed and rich few number of dimensions versus a large number of very shallow dimensions. The Abyss being its pure Lasombra thing is uninteresting because there's nothing to it other than "spooky dark place." It being the home of Wraiths and the Demons is something that makes it far more interesting, IMHO, as well as opens up a lot more Storytelling opportunities.

Also, with the explanations i've heard in prior editions; A realm outside of creation, or something pilfered from Lilith's garden, lasombra himself... As high-up as people put lilith, she's not the source of the entropic force at the end of creation. The Abyss, as Fuck-Off-Dangerous as it is, just doesn't seem as toxic as Oblivion-The-Maw-Eating-At-The-World. I mean Obtenebration should be too-dangerous-to-use if it was, especially because masters are supposed to be able to dive into the realm and if it's oblivion.... yeesh, might as well jump into fire.

I can't think of anything honestly more terrifying than drawing power from the center of Hell that drove all the Elohim utterly insane with how horrible it was and whatever nightmares they generated there in their madness as that's notably all where the dreams of the Nephandi who want to end everything exist. But again, I like crossover like this.

The Abyss was a NEAR REALM aka in the Middle-Umbra. It's literally directly mentioned as Near Realm you can go to into in Werewolf at Chapter 2 of W20 - Umbra - The Velvet Shadows as the first Realm described and p.329 of the core of W20 also lists the Abyss as a Near Realm in the Spirit world. If it was in the Low Umbra, it would've been mentioned as such- but it ISN'T. Spectres aren't described as being the in the Abyss, no mention of the Labyrinth, or the Tempest... I still fail to see how they are the same. And the Neverborn literally have nothing to do with the "Fallen/Elohim", they spawned as soon as Life separated from Death instantaneously- they have nothing to even do with D:TF. Also WHEN have the Lasombra contacted Demons unless it was some OC Chronicle involving infernalism?

Yeah, that's one Abyss and the one the Wyrm is imprisoned in. Given the Wyrm is never associated with Lasombra or its myticism, the Abyss for the Underworld is a much closer fit.

But, obviously, YMMV.

I think it's a fantastic bit of crossover.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Having a few, clearly defined realms is very DnD
Setting up other places like a "house with near-infinite rooms" makes for a more compelling cosmology, in my opinion. You can categorize things together, (low, middle, high/ near, far but they don't need to be together for the convenience of occultists. If anything, the limited perspective of characters gives us more mystery. Being able to -map- the realms with such little effort makes everything far too familiar, and I don't think we want things too familiar and limited in the World of Darkness (where information is also 'dark')
Drawing power from a realm you don't understand is scarier than drawing from a realm that has A,B and C in it.

[CTPhipps]

Having a few, clearly defined realms is very DnD
Setting up other places like a "house with near-infinite rooms" makes for a more compelling cosmology, in my opinion. You can categorize things together, (low, middle, high/ near, far but they don't need to be together for the convenience of occultists. If anything, the limited perspective of characters gives us more mystery. Being able to -map- the realms with such little effort makes everything far too familiar, and I don't think we want things too familiar and limited in the World of Darkness (where information is also 'dark')
Drawing power from a realm you don't understand is scarier than drawing from a realm that has A,B and C in it.

I disagree.

But this argument came up in my discussion of the Dreaming when I was a huge Changeling fan. Basically, the Dreamining is INFINITE and contains EVERYTHING YOU CAN IMAGINE, which from a gaming perspective means it contains nothing. There's not much point in developing infinity and I feel like it makes the Spirit World far less useful for "adventuring" in. Mind you, I did love Planescape as a teen and adding to well-established locals was something that I felt worked better than just saying, "An infinite number of planes."

YMMV.

[Shakanaka]

What? When and where has it been described the Wyrm is imprisoned in the Abyss? The realm of the Wyrm is Malfeas and that's its realm of complete control- it isn't imprisoned in it all. The closest it has been "imprisoned" was literally by the Weaver and that's what drove it mad in the first place, but then again the Weaver definitely has little to do with the Abyss. The Abyss by no margin was EVER associated with the Low Umbra pre-D:TF and its hackery in the setting where is claims anything could exist UNDER (not the center of it) Oblivion; which is nonsensical to say the least (with the most hackiest stuff in the last gameline of oWoD that was D:TF where I remember it said Lucifer had a few brief stints with Lilith all of a sudden out of nowhere and they had multiple of "monster" children, but it was never deliberated or elaborated on at all in D:TF's gameline afterward on the status of said creatures whatsoever... Yeah, D:TF is very hackey).

Its clear with evidence I directly purported here in this thread that the Abyss was clearly only Middle-Umbric AKA a Near-Realm. You're right to say the Wyrm was never associated with the Lasombra's mysticism, but I directly gave you proof that neither was Obtenebration associated with the Low-Umbra by any means at all. Clearly the shadows the Lasombra manipulated were physical "shadow-stuff" objects that the Lasombra could directly manipulate through the Discipline. How in the world now can the Lasombra manipulate stuff that don't exist- because again, there is nothing in Oblivion whatsoever.

Seriously, crossover is fine and its a thing I feel that needs to be rectified because low-contact between the supernaturals didn't make sense considering lore precedents all over WoD- but do CROSSOVER right, have it make SENSE... and taking cues from D:TF for crossover is a REALLY, REALLY bad idea.

[Alphari]

The Abyss was a NEAR REALM aka in the Middle-Umbra. It's literally directly mentioned as Near Realm you can go to into in Werewolf at Chapter 2 of W20 - Umbra - The Velvet Shadows as the first Realm described and p.329 of the core of W20 also lists the Abyss as a Near Realm in the Spirit world.

I'm not sure if the "Wolf" Abyss is the Vampire Abyss.
We already have 3-5 different abysses.
- Ghost Abyss
- The abyss of vampires in which shadows and strange entities live, antediluvian and living whirlwinds.
- Abyssal Demons
- Abyss of Nefandi. There are several very difficult and long, winding paths to it. To do this, you need to go through special gates that are in the umbra and on Earth. (Well, that's where they become Nefandi.)
- Abyss as reality in Umbra. In which everything falls down ... spirits materialize despite their essence. It is strange that the closed reality of the world of shadows contains a hole in reality...

PS: Why can't everyone accept the fact that there can be several realms with same name?

[CTPhipps]

What? When and where has it been described the Wyrm is imprisoned in the Abyss? The realm of the Wyrm is Malfeas and that's its realm of complete control- it isn't imprisoned in it all. The closest it has been "imprisoned" was literally by the Weaver and that's what drove it mad in the first place, but then again the Weaver definitely has little to do with the Abyss. The Abyss by no margin was EVER associated with the Low Umbra pre-D:TF and its hackery in the setting where is claims anything could exist UNDER (not the center of it) Oblivion; which is nonsensical to say the least (with the most hackiest stuff in the last gameline of oWoD that was D:TF where I remember it said Lucifer had a few brief stints with Lilith all of a sudden out of nowhere and they had multiple of "monster" children, but it was never deliberated or elaborated on at all in D:TF's gameline afterward on the status of said creatures whatsoever... Yeah, D:TF is very hackey).

Its clear with evidence I directly purported here in this thread that the Abyss was clearly only Middle-Umbric AKA a Near-Realm. You're right to say the Wyrm was never associated with the Lasombra's mysticism, but I directly gave you proof that neither was Obtenebration associated with the Low-Umbra by any means at all. Clearly the shadows the Lasombra manipulated were physical "shadow-stuff" objects that the Lasombra could directly manipulate through the Discipline. How in the world now can the Lasombra manipulate stuff that don't exist- because again, there is nothing in Oblivion whatsoever.

Seriously, crossover is fine and its a thing I feel that needs to be rectified because low-contact between the supernaturals didn't make sense considering lore precedents all over WoD- but do CROSSOVER right, have it make SENSE... and taking cues from D:TF for crossover is a REALLY, REALLY bad idea.

The Abyss is described as where the Wyrm is at the bottom of things, imprisoned by the Weaver. Malpheas is not the Wyrm's prison.

As for Demon: The Fallen, it is MUCH closer to "proper" vampire mythology than Mage or Werewolf.

[Shakanaka]

1. Wraith never had an Abyss discounting the mess from D:TF and that add-on was past when Wraith ended.

2. Its very likely the Abyss is purely Middle-Umbric and its not a "Vampire/Lasombra" Abyss alone purely, its just something the Lasombra clan discovered with its obsession with pure shadow, but it predated them

3. Again, some hackery from D:TF. Though the D:TF "Abyss" apparently is in the LOW-UMBRA somehow under Oblivion for whatever reason (probably for edge factor for the sake of it). The Lasombra with stuff I've shown from their book says the Abyss is to be treated like as if it was in the High Umbra or "Astral Plane" directly. That's as furthest as you can get from the Underworld so the Lasombra definitely didn't power their Obtenebration from there at all. Even with that, canonically the Lasombra went IN and OUT of the Abyss as much as they wanted- but the Abyss described in Demon: The Fallen is a prison they you CAN'T get out of easily or if at all.

The way the "Elohim/Abrahmic Demon-Angels" whatever even got out the Abyss was through pure plot development of two NUKES apparently... One nuke from the Hierarchy assaulting the Underworld version of Enoch and one nuke from the Void Engineer Xerxes Jones (he's the NPC I hate the most in the entire franchise) that went off above the Labyrinth, "to crack small enough riffs" for the Fallen to get out (to note, only the smallest and "weakest" ones of the Fallen. This conflicts with how the Lasombra are able to easily go back and forth in the Abyss with albeit moderate risk at best.

The Nephandi don't have "Abyss", but something called Labyrinths. Admittedly it has the same nomenclature as the Labyrinth from the Low-Umbra, but the differences is that there is only a singular Labyrinth in the Low-Umbra in its entirety; while what the Nephandi have plural, as in there are multiple different ones and they are in the Deep-Umbra; not Low-Umbra.

EDIT:

The Abyss is described as where the Wyrm is at the bottom of things, imprisoned by the Weaver. Malpheas is not the Wyrm's prison.

Please tell me where it says the Abyss is where the Wyrm is "at the bottom of things" at all? Not only that how can the Weaver imprison the Wyrm in a place where it literally is the weakest along with the Wyld?

Significantly, neither the Weaver nor the Wyld is strong here; the signature charms of Break and Solidify Reality do not function in the realm, and thus most spirits of Weaver and Wyld assiduously avoid the Abyss whenever possible

Since the Wyrm isn't even mentioned to be weak here directly, why would the Weaver be strong enough to cage it in here of all places?

As for Demon: The Fallen, it is MUCH closer to "proper" vampire mythology than Mage or Werewolf.

Really? Because beyond Caine apparently being the cataclyst plot-device for the Fallen to finally take off their "safety mode" and fight the Heavenly Host for real, D:TF doesn't even broach the vast majority of VTM history despite apparently they had massive wars on Earth for whatever reason. It doesn't mention the Baali, the first or second cities- it literally takes no account of any of the supernaturals that would've been active when the Fallen were warring against the Host. It was a weird gameline that insisted upon itself as the explainer of how oWoD came to be, but all it did was explain the Book of Genesis as a Fortnite battle royale.

[KarlB]

I'm personally happy that they got rid of the many multitudes of different spirit realms, especially when many of them were practically copypasta of each other. The idea that there's a great darkness for vampires, and another great darkness for wraiths, and another great darkness for mages and werewolves ... just seems silly. I doubt this was a decision made from the get go, but rather a bunch of tacked on stuff made for each different core system that in original oWOD really didn't play all that well with each other.

There is ONE great devouring darkness. Malfeans from Wraith draw power from it to become these godlike entities. Saying the Wyrm resides in Malfeas, but then claiming that *Malfeans* from Wraith's Oblivion, with the exact same name, are somehow totally unrelated seems silly. And then there's the Nephandi from mage who are corrupted by a great devouring darkness, emerge from cauls in a 'Labyrinth', but are somehow not related either?

It's just confusing. It's adding multiple dimensions in a cosmology that all do the exact same thing yet are somehow different. There's no reason for it other than just making things annoyingly more complicated.

Finally, we have the Lasombra and the Abyss. The Abyss, according to the wiki, is a realm of darkness with no native inhabitants, but is quasi sentient. And by extrapolation, has it's own horrible agenda and corrupting influence. It's even stated that long term exposure to it can break a Lasombra's mind. Sound familiar?

V5 simply put their foot down, took all these realms of devouring darkness, and merged them into one. The 'energy' of death itself. An endless void from which there is no escape. A cosmological black hole that drives people mad when they stare into it. The single most horrible place in existence.

Now if some of you would prefer all of this be kept separate, despite them all being described the same way, go nuts. You're the GM, it's your game and the golden rule applies. Just please stop raging and acting offended over an approach that is, basically, logically consistent.

[Alphari]

There's no reason for it other than just making things annoyingly more complicated.

Difference in lore, different abilities, lack of connection between these dimensions and their influence... yes, I think there are no conflicts.

[KarlB]

Difference in lore, different abilities, lack of connection between these dimensions and their influence... yes, I think there are no conflicts.

Despite them all thematically being essentially the same thing. I'd agree with you if their descriptions were very different, but they are not. All three are dark voids. All three are corrupting and draining influences. May as well just make all three the same thing. IMO.

[Shakanaka]

Finally, we have the Lasombra and the Abyss. The Abyss, according to the wiki, is a realm of darkness with no native inhabitants, but is quasi sentient. And by extrapolation, has it's own horrible agenda and corrupting influence. It's even stated that long term exposure to it can break a Lasombra's mind. Sound familiar?

It doesn't sound familiar because again, Oblivion isn't aware or has no intelligence if you even read my previous posts. It has no agenda nor does it actively spread corruption, Oblivion just is. And I also went and looked into the Lasombra sourcebook AND even mentioned it by myself before I checked it beforehand that as you say, the Abyss is a semi-aware ENTITY- some sort of BEING, which Oblivion decidedly isn't. The approach isn't logical nor is it consistent as you say when we check previous precedents directly from multiple books, not from the wiki.

Also Malfeas is a singular word designator for a place and the Neverborn (aka "Malfeans") are entities. Yes its unfortunate that they have similar names (actually this could apply for this whole debacle in the first place) but with a little applied logic anyone can note they certainly aren't the same. Malfeans reside in the Low-Umbra, while again, Malfeas is a realm in the Middle-Umra. In any case beyond that, the Malfeans have never used "power" directly from Oblivion because there is nothing to utilize from it at all.

The Nephandi- again, they have multiple Labyrinths instead of mentioning the singular one from the Low-Umbra and what they use is from the Deep/High Umbra. Just another case of unfortunate and strange same-naming, but they literally aren't the same and have different purposes.

Honestly the silliness was just from White Wolf abusing the word "Abyss" and some concept of "darkness" for an edge factor across all the gamelines- but it was only greatly done in WTO in my opinion because it greatly exemplified pure clinical wrought of unreality in a non-cheesy way.

[Alphari]

it actively spread corruption

In W20 it is written that for some reason it began to suck in ghosts. It also somehow created (or separated) "shadow". Although it is difficult to call it "corruption".