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  • #91
    Apparently there are some Wraiths in the Middle-Umbric Abyss, but they came after the Six Great Maelstrom had happened- with this being inducted that it was never a realm Wraiths could really go to unless under the rarest or strange circumstances (which a Great Maelstrom certainly would count for). Wraiths as is can't easily go into the Middle or High Umbra at all. One of my first threads on this site was explicitly asking if Wraiths could set up bases there, but everyone directly consensus'd that it's extremely rare for Wraiths to be in the other Umbras. I heard that the only places to get to the other Umbras as a Wraith would either being going through Yomi Wan since its an unnatural artificial realm made by the Yama Kings or go up the "Roots of the Life-Tree", whatever that means at all.


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    • #92
      Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

      It doesn't sound familiar because again, Oblivion isn't aware or has no intelligence if you even read my previous posts. It has no agenda nor does it actively spread corruption, Oblivion just is.
      Yes, except for the fact the Abyss is inhabited by the Neverborn who do and contact with the Abyss will turn Wraiths into purely evil insane nihilistic psychopaths.

      One thing that Wraith is clear about is that Oblivion isn't a neutral force but horrifically malevolent.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #93
        There are at least four different uses of Abyss in the WoD to claim that any given use MUST be the same as another (say the Lasombra Abyss being the middle umbra Abyss) is kind of pointless? Like, in-character, there's no particular reason for Kindred to ever have any contact with or understanding of the way Garou interpret a spirit world vampires can barely (if at all) perceive, let alone interact with.

        Oblivion at least is connected to death, as Kindred are. In a different way, of course, but still closer in resonance (not used as a game term here). The Lasombra Abyss is never clearly defined in VRev or V20, so it could be anything. Including the abyss the demons came from. And since Demon and Vampire have the most similar take on cosmology, is it really that much of a reach?

        As far as energy goes, those are some mighty powerful storms to pour out of the Labyrinth if there's no energy involved.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          Yes, except for the fact the Abyss is inhabited by the Neverborn who do and contact with the Abyss will turn Wraiths into purely evil insane nihilistic psychopaths.

          One thing that Wraith is clear about is that Oblivion isn't a neutral force but horrifically malevolent.

          What are you even talking about? When have Neverborn ever inhabited an Abyss? The Neverborn reside in the Labyrinth in the Underworld. WTO never had an Abyss in its series before in the first place, only Oblivion and that was it. Not only that anyone who has "contact" with Oblivion just poofs out of existence, it doesn't turn you into anything. The only things that turn Wraiths into Spectres was their natural permanent Angst going up to 10, failing a Harrowing, or being shredded up in a Maelstrom.

          EDIT: Also tell me ANYWHERE in Wraith where it explicitly says Oblivion has any form of thought or desire for anything? How can something that is nothing have malevolence when it just is?

          Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
          Like, in-character, there's no particular reason for Kindred to ever have any contact with or understanding of the way Garou interpret a spirit world vampires can barely (if at all) perceive, let alone interact with.
          What does this even mean? It doesn't matter what the Garou interpret because the Clanbook Lasombra book straight says to treat the Abyss as if its the High Umbra, or in another lesser case, the Middle Umbra. They explicitly say its a Realm. Out of all the Vampire clans we already have direct proof that the Lasombra are only one of the clans that HAVE gone to the other Umbras beside the Low-Umbra; which was extremely easy for Vampires to go to, but the other ones like the aforementioned Low and High Umbra? Not so much.

          Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
          The Lasombra Abyss is never clearly defined in VRev or V20,
          These are the features we know from the Abyss from Clanbook Lasombra Revised itself and why the Abyss described isn't like Oblivion from WTO or the "Abyss" from D:TF at all:

          -It has a form of intelligence, however small or large as it is and has some form of memory (check)

          -directly says its a realm of some sort, Realms in the franchise have been associated with the Middle-Umbra (check)

          -It is the direct source of how the Lasombra powered their Obteneberation and besides shadow-play that manipulates natural shadows, the shadows from further along the ability direct say it is of physical shadow stuff (check because we already know Oblivion has none of that)

          -The Lasombra for millennia have literally traveled around INSIDE this realm (check, check, and double check because nothing can reside in Oblivion)

          -This is more of Demon's fault for not even bothering to take note of what it was potentially crossing over with, but the Lasombra have NEVER mentioned Demons of any sort in the Abyss other than Abyss Spirits (which are made of physical shadow ephemerea, whereas the "Elohim/Fallen" in its own line said they were turned into completely incorporal forms). Barring retroactivity, in the D:TF book it never talks about the Lasombra or any entities beside other Fallen in the Abyss at all. If it was made to be a prison of some sort, why the heck are the Lasombra able to pop in and out so easily?

          Why did D:TF never make a story plothook regarding the Lasombra; maybe one where they try to either trick or bargain with the Lasombra to break them out? That line is riddled with plotholes and again only insists upon itself. It's clear that the Lasombra used a different Abyss (the one clearly from the Middle-Umbra) and not the stupid one added with D:TF post-WTO. Even the Clanbook Lasombra book tells you that if you get defeated while in (because again, you can't be inside Oblivion at all- you'll face complete obliteration) the Abyss, you just get spat back out into the material world.

          Originally posted by Clanbook Lasombra, Revised p.73
          If a character loses all of his Willpower in astral combat, no "silver cord" is severed (referencing the converse Discipline Auspex by the way) but the Abyss spits the character out into the nearest dark place in the material world.
          Oblivion cannot "spit" anything out if anything were to even contact it. Anything that's in it gets evaporated out of existence. Conversely the "prison Abyss" described in D:TF is well, a prison. The Fallen can't fight eachother whatsoever and are relegated to incorporal forms, decidedly different from the physical-ephemeral shadow-stuff Abyss Spirits are composed out of.
          Last edited by Shakanaka; 11-25-2020, 02:41 AM.


          Jade Kingdom Warrior

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          • #95
            Could you cite the part of Clanbook: Lasombra that says to treat it as the high or middle umbra? The only reference I can find that says anything at all is to treat it like the astral plane as per Auspex 5, and that means to use similar rules (as modified on page 73) not that it is literally the astral plane.

            I also need a citation on all those claims about what can or cannot happen within Oblivion or the associated abyss per Demon: The Fallen.

            I think it is a bit over the top to claim that people who had worked at White Wolf for years and were familiar with the company's products somehow didn't know what they were doing when they wrote Demon: The Fallen, and maybe there are better ways to argue such a thing.
            Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 11-25-2020, 05:06 AM.

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            • #96
              This wiki page lists the four different uses of "Abyss" in the World of Darkness (and one in Mage: The Awakening). https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Abyss

              The Abyss as the source of Obtenebration has very limited information, based entirely on what the Lasombra could know, given they don't really interact with any particular Umbra. https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Abyss_(VTM)

              The Abyss in Demon: The Fallen is beneath the Underworld per this page. I'd have to read Demon's information to see if there's anything more precise, but it doesn't seem to specifically place it within or underneath Oblivion, the Labyrinth, or the Tempest, although one or more of these is implied. https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Abyss_(DTF)

              You'd expect the near/middle umbra realm of the Abyss to have something in common with the Lasombra Abyss if they were both the same thing, but I don't think that really follows. This Abyss is something else with particular kinds of physical manifestations. https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Abyss_(WTA)

              Les Invisibles in Wraith used to call The Sea of Shadows in Wraith "the Abyss." It's the bottom layer of the Tempest, which flows in and around Oblivion and the Labyrinth, but, crucially are not either of those. https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Sea_of_Shadows_(WTO) The wiki page speculates that this may be associated with the Lasombra and/or the D:TF Abyss. Which I kind of favor, although the Sea of Shadows itself doesn't seem to be the Abyss. Based on D:TF's description, it does appear to be very close by.

              One of the things about the WoD games is none of them present an objective picture of reality in the World of Darkness, whether the world itself, the different Umbral layers, the Underworld, or really much of anything. Some places can have multiple expressions based upon how you approach them and where you're coming from. As such virtually all setting information is subjective and often biased. So what we have are four different possibly "Abysses," although the descriptions can certainly overlap. If I look at any given vampire clan or or discipline, I don't expect to see anything that connects directly to the middle Umbra, because the middle Umbra represents life, and Obtenebration's not going to reach across that divide to access the hole in reality somewhere over there. One might argue it connects via a different route, but at that point it could end up anywhere.

              As far as Oblivion goes, it's not accurate to say there's no will or energy within it. It's described as calling to wraiths and as the force of entropy. It's not a passive hole at the very bottom of the universe, it's an all-devouring maw actively consuming anything that comes to close and turning it into a servant. Wraith hammers this point home over and over again. It's not nothingness in the sense that nothing exists there, it's nothingness in the sense that it seeks to end the existence of all things.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Wraith the Oblivion - 2nd Edition, pg. 32
                The passive, patient aspect of destruction, Oblivion is part of the natural order of things. It waits for all things when they break down; everything must die eventually, in order to make way for new things to be born. When kept in check by the forces of creation, Oblivion is an essential part of the cycle of death and rebirth. Mindless and eternal, Oblivion has always waited to swallow those souls no longer Fettered to the Skinlands but not ready for Transcendence
                Here we get the explicit purpose of Oblivion is that is a just passive nothingness that is just there, and that anything that goes at it is simply just extinguished outright. There is no "within" Oblivion what so ever. Its not an entity, not aware, not anything in particular other than a splotch of unreality. Not even the people who wrote up D:TF even went as far as saying the Abyss was "in Oblivion" but rather "under" it (just general hackey stuff from D:TF). Its to a point where Oblivion will be the final destination for the Wyrm to destroy itself if it ever destroys reality- because the Wyrm is an active aware ENTITY of destruction, while Oblivion is a mere passive nothingness of destruction that has no expression.

                Originally posted by Wraith the Oblivion - 2nd Edition, pg. 284 - Wyrm
                The Wyrm is active destruction and corruption, seeking to tear down all that exists. It is not content to wait for things to fall apart; it wishes to drag all down to ruin by the force its actions
                Originally posted by Wraith the Oblivion - 2nd Edition, pg 284 - Oblivion
                Oblivion, on the other hand, is patient, passive destruction. When things grow old and falter, as they all inevitably must, then and only then does Oblivion claim them. Even Spectres, in a very real sense, give themselves to Oblivion as opposed to being claimed by it.
                Originally posted by Wraith the Oblivion - 2nd Edition, pg 284
                At the end of all things, when the Wyrm has destroyed all else, it will seek to destroy the only thing that remains: itself. By doing so, it will gift itself to Oblivion
                Tell me at this point, at once if the Wyrm destroys everything that exists and finally dives into Oblivion due to it being the last point of existence left, how can you believe ANYTHING can be within Oblivion at all? Its pure unreality.

                And why do you think my claims are over the top when both these lines literally have different creators entirely? It doesn't matter if its the same company and obviously not a lot of familiarity is there with the plotholes strewn about in D:TF.

                EDIT:

                Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
                because the middle Umbra represents life, and Obtenebration's not going to reach across that divide to access the hole in reality somewhere over there.
                How can Obtenebration NOT draw from a Middle-Umbra Abyss when I literally gave citations in the previous page of this post that the Abyss the Lasombra go INSIDE (i.e INTO) is in some shape or form "aware" or "alive" in some sort of dark unknown way? Just because something has some form of "life" doesn't mean its positive or can't share the same resonances more in align with Vampires. Banes are "alive", but we all know that they are directly opposed of it and the matter of their "life" is that their composed of spirit-ephemera. Weaver spirits are also "alive", but we know they have the explicit purpose of wanting everything calcified into a still order physicality of some sort.

                Same thing with the Abyss from which the Lasombra literally with citations have drawn the power of their Obtenebration from. Clearly the Abyss creatures they summon are directly made from the Abyss which has an element of awareness and ephemeral physicality; of which Oblivion has none of whatsoever.

                Originally posted by Clanbook Lasombra, Revised pg.73
                Arms of the Abyss can draw out portions of the Abyss intelligence, when coupled with proper occult preparation. This requires a one-hour ritual, one blood point and a successful Intelligence + Occult roll (difficulty 7). Then the summoner invokes Arms of the Abyss with making the usual Manipulation + Occult roll (difficulty 7). When used this way, only a single arm manifests.
                There is nothing to manifest from Oblivion in the first place nor any "shadow-stuff" as described in the Lasombra Clanbook;

                Originally posted by Clanbook Lasombra, Revised pg.72
                For many Obtenebration practitioners, the Abyss is simply the conceptual realm from which they draw shadow-stuff.
                Barring everything else excluding all the other interpretations of the various "Abysses" in the series focusing on VTM for a moment, nowhere in how it is described in the clanbook does it say the Abyss is a realm about destroying things at all. It just says its a realm of pure darkness and shadow. That's it.
                Last edited by Shakanaka; 11-25-2020, 06:18 AM.


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                • #98
                  Strongly suggest you read Wraith 20, pg 26. Here are two choice quotes:

                  But a little Oblivion goes a long way, and in the Underworld, it’s a far more vital force than one might expect. Not content to simply wait for time to bring it sustenance, it reaches out through its agents to hasten the inevitable decline of creation. It is Oblivion’s touch that turns wraiths into Shadow-Eaten Spectres, and that gives voice and power to the Shadow inside every wraith’s mind. It’s Oblivion that fuels the nightmare monstrosities of the Labyrinth and that sucks the material of its twisted walls out of the Tempest. And it is Oblivion that belches forth Maelstroms, the savage storms that scour the Underworld and devour the weak and unlucky. Sooner or later, all things must fall to Oblivion, but it would prefer sooner.
                  At one time, Oblivion was not a ravenous corrupter. Rather, it was the manifestation of passive destruction, the void into which all things eventually fell when their time came. It did not seek out prey, as it did not need to. In time, all things came to it, dying in order to make room for the new. It was, in this pure incarnation, an essential part of the cycle of life and death.

                  And with the shock that separated the living from the dead, all of that suddenly changed.

                  Once, wraiths had roamed a world made up of memories and dreams, occasionally drifting away when they no longer had a sufficient sense of self to continue. But with the rising of the Shroud, Oblivion awoke, and it was hungry. Reaching out, it stirred a sleeping part of every wraith’s mind, the vicious, selfish, despairing heart of darkness in every soul, and gave it voice. The Shadow now tore at wraiths from within their souls, urging them down the endless slope to Oblivion and tormenting them if they resisted.
                  And lest you reiterate the argument that the writers and developer don't understand the game, I point out that Richard Dansky, line developer for Wraith for much of its run at White Wolf, also developed Wraith 20, and several of the contributors have written for Rich during his run on Wraith.

                  The first two sentence of the second paragraph in Wraith second edition directly contradict what you're saying the entry as a whole states. What you're quoting is what Oblivion is supposed to be, or at least what it used to be. In modern times, it's raging appetite, not passive emptiness.

                  These days, however, it would seem Oblivion rages unchecked. Its pull strengthens daily as its appetite for souls increases.
                  The sidebar on page 284 describes the two in comparison, but when you look at it the writing in the rest of second edition and Wraith 20, it does not paint a passive picture.

                  Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                  And why do you think my claims are over the top when both these lines literally have different creators entirely? It doesn't matter if its the same company and obviously not a lot of familiarity is there with the plotholes strewn about in D:TF.
                  Do you think they all just worked in entirely separate offices never interacting or speaking to one another? Andrew Bates was at WW for literal years and worked on multiple Wraith books. Ken Cliffe worked at White Wolf since at least 1992, and was line developer on Ars Magica. Later on, he was creative director for White Wolf. Steve Wieck was one of the founders, along with his brother and Mark Rein*Hagen. Rich Thomas had worked on the Wraith line prior to Demon: The Fallen. Are you really sure you want to argue that these people were not competent enough to research the game line they were drawing from to describe the Abyss in Demon: The Fallen? Are you really sure you want to insult the designers, who undoubtedly knew more about the WoD than either of us, by claiming they didn't know what they were doing? It's one thing to disagree with them. It's another thing to claim they just did whatever they wanted without any concern for anything else.

                  Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                  How can Obtenebration NOT draw from a Middle-Umbra Abyss when I literally gave citations in the previous page of this post that the Abyss the Lasombra go INSIDE (i.e INTO) is in some shape or form "aware" or "alive" in some sort of dark unknown way? Just because something has some form of "life" doesn't mean its positive or can't share the same resonances more in align with Vampires. Banes are "alive", but we all know that they are directly opposed of it and the matter of their "life" is that their composed of spirit-ephemera. Weaver spirits are also "alive", but we know they have the explicit purpose of wanting everything calcified into a still order physicality of some sort.
                  Okay, so showing that they can enter the Abyss does not show that it is the Middle Umbra version of the Abyss. There's no explicit or implied connection there other than the name itself.

                  Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                  Same thing with the Abyss from which the Lasombra literally with citations have drawn the power of their Obtenebration from. Clearly the Abyss creatures they summon are directly made from the Abyss which has an element of awareness and ephemeral physicality; of which Oblivion has none of whatsoever.

                  There is nothing to manifest from Oblivion in the first place nor any "shadow-stuff" as described in the Lasombra Clanbook;

                  Barring everything else excluding all the other interpretations of the various "Abysses" in the series focusing on VTM for a moment, nowhere in how it is described in the clanbook does it say the Abyss is a realm about destroying things at all. It just says its a realm of pure darkness and shadow. That's it.
                  Why would it say anything more than what the Lasombra know about it? Why does largely in-character description with "here there be dragons" practically scrawled all over it somehow get treated as an objective external observation that somehow matches to a place that has exactly two things in common with it (the name and the darkness). The Abyss in the Middle Umbra doesn't have a will or entities made of shadow or physicality. There are things that live in it, but they're like... actual living things that went inside and live there. Down one of the iron, gold, or silver paths in the Umbra.

                  In any event, prior to Blood Cults, the Lasombra Abyss is not explicitly described as a realm that can be directly linked to the other named Abysses based on the text alone. By connecting it to the Abyss the demons came from or Oblivion (these are not the same thing) in V5, we're not getting a retcon. We're getting more information than we had before.
                  Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 11-25-2020, 07:38 AM.

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                  • #99
                    The concrete thing here is that the predication surrounding whatever "Abyss" the Lasombra interacted with was something that;

                    A) that it could be something that you can go inside
                    B) has no particular purpose than a "conceptual" realm of darkness and shadow, but that's it- no word of destruction whatsoever
                    C) something that they not only COULD go directly inside of, but leave easily when they wanted to
                    D) and it has some form of awareness and it is directly ACTIVE in some shape, because the Lasombra draw upon its awareness and physical "shadow-stuff" (in this inductive case, ephemera) directly to power their Obtenebration

                    None of this what Oblivion from WTO is. None of Obtenebration relayed signatures that would be related to the Low Umbra. The Lasombra never dabbled with Necromancy at all barring maybe an OC character or chronicle. It doesn't make a splick of sense and the reason why this argument is even happening is because it is centered around this "Oblivion" technique in V5. From what I've learned its apparently one "Discipline", but for some reason the Lasombra have a completely different powerset from the "Hecata" (and genuinely please correct me if I'm wrong on that).

                    The question stands, why even have both these "clans" (I put it in quotation in reference to the Hecata, because apparently they're a Sect.. but lets be honest, they aren't) have the same name for a Discipline when in practice their going to be completely different? Why not just keep the namesake Obtenebration in V5 and why just let the Hecata have a Discipline called "Necromancy", but simplified where they're no Paths since that's what V5 is going for "streamlines". It just feels to me they just want a quick and fast way to curmudgeon the so called "unique" Disciplines somehow.
                    Last edited by Shakanaka; 12-03-2020, 08:43 PM.


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                    • A) You can go inside Oblivion, but more importantly you can go inside the Abyss that the Fallen were imprisoned in
                      B) Destruction is active, not passive.
                      C) You can leave the Fallen's Abyss too, that's what they did
                      D) Oblivion has some form of awareness expressed through shadows and spectres

                      I think it makes all kinds of sense to connect Obtenebration to the Underworld. It actually makes it more interesting, as now there's a whole underworld of stuff to link to it, whereas before all we had was shades and Lasombra's soul. And, most importantly, it doesn't actually contradict previous material because previous material was Vaguely McVagueVague about the Abyss. I haven't read Blood Cults as I'm not a backer, but I look forward to seeing what they did.

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                      • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
                        You can go inside Oblivion, but more importantly you can go inside the Abyss that the Fallen were imprisoned in
                        Go inside.. Oblivion? lolno. There is nothing to go inside, you're just disintegrated.. that's it. Where do you get the notion you can go INSIDE Oblivion? You can't because anything in Oblivion is completely destroyed. There is also a minutiae difference in what Oblivion causes than say, the destruction the Wyrm gives for an example; Oblivion gives a full wholesale instantaneous (key prefix-verb here, "instant") destruction while the Wyrm is the one actively corrupting and destroying things with physical actions. That's why Oblivion is so insidious, because its simple a focal point of sitting unreality- a reverse blackhole that has no inherent strength, but delineates almost anything instantly. It doesn't have to be "active" to be destructive or have any reason to be.

                        The Abyss found in the D:TF line as is, is described as a prison that is so tight that the "Fallen/Elohim" haven't gotten out of it until 1999 with the Week of Nightmares, two Nukes going off a once, and the Sixth Maelstrom. How in the world conversely going back to the Abyss the Lasombra interact with, how can they easily go in and out of it; and also summon things or draw power from it directly? That doesn't sound like prison to me whatsoever nor would it make sense for the Lasombra to be easy to even leave it.

                        Now that I look at it, it seems even the D:TF corebook makes a distinction from Oblivion and the "Abyss" prison they were trapped in.

                        Originally posted by Demon - The Fallen - Core, pg.72
                        Five years working in an inner city area had shaken his faith but had yet to break. He saw death as a blessing sometimes, and he often found more peace in it than the suffering of those who lived. I agree with him. Sometimes oblivion is better than suffering, and there were certainly times in the Abyss when I wished my existence would end. Yet, I do not entirely share his peace, for I know, without doubt, that life can continue after death. I just do not know what God does with the souls He takes. Are they granted oblivion, or does God have some other fate for them?
                        It seems pretty clear here from this that the Abyss is NOT Oblivion.. because again, the Fallen speaking here makes a clear distinction that whatever Abyss they were trapped in- DIDN'T wipe them from existence, which Oblivion has the express purpose of doing. Its a place where its a prison meant to RETAIN or keep the existence of something. The Fallen never even mention that there were any entities beside themselves in the "Abyss"/Pitt they were in at all. They definitely aren't Abyssal Spirits that the Lasombra utilized beforehand, because the Fallen have individuality and personalities- while the Abyss Spirits are just an extensive of "shadow-stuff" from whatever Abyss Obtenebration drew power from. In Clanbook Lasombra, the book outright says the arms Lasombra utilize are an extension of the Abyss directly.

                        So I dunno, YMMV at this point.


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                        • I still don't see any solid facts in some of your (both) statements. Some of the statements contain errors or contradict what is written in books.
                          • Why does one of you want to bind the Abyss with Wolves and Umbra? There are 2 other abysses in the world that are either at the edge of the universe (if not beyond the edge) or in / near Oblivion.
                          • Why does everyone want to link necromancy and Lasombra? They never worked with dead-arts.
                          • You are offering two not entirely convincing choices.
                          • In the first choice, the Lasombra can somehow summon ghostly tentacles, although the abyss itself has never contained real ghosts. But there were shadow knights capable of stealing disciplines. There were intangible shadows-parasites, food, buildings, material creatures created from hands and arms.
                          • In the second choice, we have a bottomless pit into which everyone falls. There spirits are forced to materialize, at the same time in the L-abyss itself there are both material and non-material entities. The darkness of Lasombra hates light, but in the Middle Umbra there is an incomprehensible hole through which entities freely pass, like light. You can also remember that the Lasombra Abyss is to some extent a source of omniscience, but I don’t remember that all those entering the darkness of the Middle Umbra would acquire it. The vampires in L-Abyss are in it and apparently are in weightlessness. I mean, they do not fall in it, unlike wolves and spirits trapped in the Abyss in the Middle Umbra.
                          • L-Abyss causes fear and psychosis. But none of these Zones contains this.
                          PS: Fallen's Abyss is for Fallen Angels... Аngels themselves say that this hell is only for them. As far as I remember, it is impossible to get into or out of it. 5 demons left the prison. For which it was required to enlist the help of many puppet cults and influence, knowledge and long... thousands years of planning of Lucifer himself. Where is there confirmation that someone (non-fallen) can get into this abyss?
                          Last edited by Alphari; 11-25-2020, 10:21 AM.

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                          • While I'm on board with the notion that the Lasombra's realm of shadows and the Fallen's Abyss are two separate things, the mental image of the Demons glaring impotently as a bunch of vampires pop in and out of their jail as they please is very funny.

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                            • OK... I don't mean this to put down the debate that's currently going on:

                              But to everyone that pushed back on my calling Obtenebration gimmicky? Two pages of debating the source of its power is very much my point. If Obtenebration was just an extension of the early Gothic vampires sometimes mucking with shadows, it doesn't need any connection to another Realm or a source of power. The whole "connection to the Abyss" is the gimmick. It shouldn't matter. Vampire Disciplines should all come from the same place even if vampires sometimes need to seek external instruction in how to tap into it in a unique way: the blood.

                              While it might be narratively convenient to say that Obtenebration and Necromancy can be smashed together into Oblivion because they both draw power from the same metaphysical source, it's not something that stands up to logical scrutiny (why aren't Celerity, Fortitude, and Potence all smashed together into one Discipline as they all share the same source?), and doesn't address the major issues people have with Oblivion (not treating it more like Blood Sorcery so necromancers aren't stuck on one style of necromancy combined with shadow manipulation and necromancy now being mutually exclusive, and the lack of backwards continuity with pre-V5 where shadow-manipulation vampires and necromancer vampires did not heavily overlapped on a Clan/Discipline level).

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                              • Perhaps common disciplines are common because the source of their powers are easily available, whilst clan specific disciplines are rare because the source of their power isn't so readily available? Obtenebration is hardly unique in fitting this paradigm. Chimestry is much the same.

                                edit:
                                The Original disciplines of the seven clans were basically Human+ stuff; Potence stems from mankind's strength, Dominate takes from mankind's obedience, Obfuscate takes from mankind's willful ignorance.... You can make these rationalizations more or less flowery, but they work.
                                Sorcery came from the Soul and Protean came from the beast... both things available to all vampires.

                                All that other funky stuff? Some of them can be rationalized (Diamonion, Quietus... buy my book!) but Obtenebration just being a shadow power... where would the vampire get that from, if not some kind of profound realm or perhaps some kind of tasty new Splat? You gonna just... feed with the lights out to learn Obtenebration?
                                Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 11-25-2020, 02:18 PM.


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