Obtenebration or Oblivion?

[blailton]

(why aren't Celerity, Fortitude, and Potence all smashed together into one Discipline as they all share the same source?)

I think you can put Protean among those three, too.

Dominate, Presence and Obfuscate can follow the same logic and be merged, too.

[Alphari]

But... sources of disciplines are Curse&Blood...

[CTPhipps]

I think everyone has said everything they have to say on the location of the Abyss. We should move on now.

[blailton]

But... sources of disciplines are Curse&Blood...

Genuine question: care to explain?

[Pleiades]

Genuine question: care to explain?

vampiric curse, vampiric blood, straight from the Gods

[Black Fox]

I thought the old Obtenebration Discipline was overpowered, and that some of its elements didn't emulate actual vampire powers in lore. It seemed more like superpowers using Marvel's Darkforce. I didn't think it was appropriate. I thought it was extremely flawed, but did get some things right.

I don't have V5 so I can't offer an opinion on the new Discipline. However, many years ago I essentially did the same thing by combining Obtenebration and the Mortis Discipline (from VtDA) together to create something I felt was thematically linked, useful, but not overpowered. I'll share it now just for its novelty so others see how someone else did a similar attempt.

For lack of a better name, I just called it Obtenebration Revised and created a handout sheet in case players needed it. It was an in-clan Discipline for the Lasombra (replacing Obtenebration naturally), the Cappadocians (replacing Mortis), and the Setites (replacing Obfuscate because I thought it worked better with their clan weakness).

For the Discipline description I wrote that it was the mastery of darkness, but that this darkness is more than mere absence of light. It was a link to the Abyss, the pit of non-existence and damnation. It is based on the primal ability of the vampire to conquer death. The darkness it conjures is a vicious, frightening thing.

The first level was simply Obtenebration 1.
The second level was Obtenebration 2, but instead of penalizing Stamina dice pools it penalized Dexterity dice pools to reflect the sense of being lost in the darkness.
The third level was Mortis 3 (based on the idea that the torpored vampire could be "reached" through the Abyss and brought back)
The fourth level was a slightly altered form of Mortis 4 with the idea that the connection to the Abyss could be temporarily strengthened to defeat the normal banes of vampires.
The fifth level was essentially Obtenebration 5.

So not much change, but it got rid of the Arms of the Abyss and Black Metamorphosis which were the powers I really had trouble with, and replaced them with equivalent levels of Mortis which I thought were the best powers of that Discipline and which I thought could still be considered to be thematically linked. The Abyss is not the Underworld, but I thought it had a metaphysical link to Oblivion and experienced/foolhardy umbral travelers could find fluxes there to use as a backdoor to the Underworld, probably entering a very hazardous area of the Tempest "near" the Labyrinth.

I don't know how this compares to the version in V5.

I really hated the idea that there were unique disciplines to clans, and wanted such knowledge to be made available to others. So while this was not a popular Discipline within the Camarilla, it was known, and PCs could potentially find a Mentor if they really wanted.

I kept Necromancy as a separate Discipline that utilized the vampire's natural connection to death as a means to draw on the Underworld, as opposed to blood magic which used the Tass of a vampire's vitae to accomplish things.

[KarlB]

Honestly, the way I see it, Oblivion is the equivalent of a spiritual black hole. A black hole has properties. It's an actual thing. But even being a thing, it's an inescapable area that destroys everything that enters it. That passes through the event horizon. So being a thing or a place within a spiritual setting and that has properties, it's not inconceivable that it's become self aware ... even if that self awareness is entirely focused on devouring absolutely everything outside it. And it does so by spreading it's corrupting spiritual influence to anything that comes near it, seducing many who hear it's siren cry. Hence spectres. Hence the Wyrm. Hence Nephandi.

Now it's entirely possible the Lasombra 'Abyss' is a realm that borders Oblivion and that draws it's power from that horrible horrible void. And if Lasombra start relying heavily on their clan's signature powers, it ends up corrupting them also. Likewise the Hecate who are drawn to death, with Oblivion being at the center of the underworld and being the most 'death' anything can be.

[blailton]

I thought the old Obtenebration Discipline was overpowered, and that some of its elements didn't emulate actual vampire powers in lore. It seemed more like superpowers using Marvel's Darkforce. I didn't think it was appropriate. I thought it was extremely flawed, but did get some things right.

I don't have V5 so I can't offer an opinion on the new Discipline. However, many years ago I essentially did the same thing by combining Obtenebration and the Mortis Discipline (from VtDA) together to create something I felt was thematically linked, useful, but not overpowered. I'll share it now just for its novelty so others see how someone else did a similar attempt.

For lack of a better name, I just called it Obtenebration Revised and created a handout sheet in case players needed it. It was an in-clan Discipline for the Lasombra (replacing Obtenebration naturally), the Cappadocians (replacing Mortis), and the Setites (replacing Obfuscate because I thought it worked better with their clan weakness).

For the Discipline description I wrote that it was the mastery of darkness, but that this darkness is more than mere absence of light. It was a link to the Abyss, the pit of non-existence and damnation. It is based on the primal ability of the vampire to conquer death. The darkness it conjures is a vicious, frightening thing.

The first level was simply Obtenebration 1.
The second level was Obtenebration 2, but instead of penalizing Stamina dice pools it penalized Dexterity dice pools to reflect the sense of being lost in the darkness.
The third level was Mortis 3 (based on the idea that the torpored vampire could be "reached" through the Abyss and brought back)
The fourth level was a slightly altered form of Mortis 4 with the idea that the connection to the Abyss could be temporarily strengthened to defeat the normal banes of vampires.
The fifth level was essentially Obtenebration 5.

So not much change, but it got rid of the Arms of the Abyss and Black Metamorphosis which were the powers I really had trouble with, and replaced them with equivalent levels of Mortis which I thought were the best powers of that Discipline and which I thought could still be considered to be thematically linked. The Abyss is not the Underworld, but I thought it had a metaphysical link to Oblivion and experienced/foolhardy umbral travelers could find fluxes there to use as a backdoor to the Underworld, probably entering a very hazardous area of the Tempest "near" the Labyrinth.

I don't know how this compares to the version in V5.

I really hated the idea that there were unique disciplines to clans, and wanted such knowledge to be made available to others. So while this was not a popular Discipline within the Camarilla, it was known, and PCs could potentially find a Mentor if they really wanted.

I kept Necromancy as a separate Discipline that utilized the vampire's natural connection to death as a means to draw on the Underworld, as opposed to blood magic which used the Tass of a vampire's vitae to accomplish things.

Dude your Obt. Is OK but Mortis 3 is a discipline level SO niche, like, very very very circumstantial. I would not call it useless in any way, but while others players will use Forgetful Mind and Mask of Thous. Faces 3~4 times a night, or use Earthmeld and Trance 1xevery night, Mortis 3 will be used once a chronicle if much...

[MyWifeIsScary]

I'd rebalance obtenebration like this:

1- Can effect an extra person per obtenebration level.
2- Needs blood. Also, Fluff wise it's way stronger than it is mechanically, so I'd add some 'fluff' features to balance it out (Attacks cause visual disturbances)
3- Grapples only take a single limb, allowing victim to freely act with the rest of their body at a penalty.
4-Is fine
5-is fine

Overall changes
-Effects are weaker in strong light
-Effects are blown apart by faith.
-Obtenebration fears fire... It won't go near it unless the obtenebration level exceeds the soak difficulty of the fire.

[Asmodai]

I think it is a bit over the top to claim that people who had worked at White Wolf for years and were familiar with the company's products somehow didn't know what they were doing when they wrote Demon: The Fallen, and maybe there are better ways to argue such a thing.

This sentiment here is what starts all these messes and why people argue about this almost 30 years later. They did not. The old agww usenet group was quite illuminating in that regard. Most of the people working on those games were freelancers or staff editors with their own pet peeves and projects and focus on singular game lines. Yet, due to the supplement treadmill and the impending End of the Line more and more people had to work with material they were unfamiliar with or that they didn't even care about.

Demon is an especially egregious offender because the "hollistic" view it presents actively rains on Mage, Werewolf and Wraith* which tends to really, really antagonise people who are into those games.

* and by extension Kindred of the East which is essentially Werewolf + Wraith masking itself as a Vampire supplement

[Shakanaka]

Demon is an especially egregious offender because the "hollistic" view it presents actively rains on Mage, Werewolf and Wraith* which tends to really, really antagonise people who are into those games.

* and by extension Kindred of the East which is essentially Werewolf + Wraith masking itself as a Vampire supplemen

*and don't forget Changeling and Hunter: The Reckoning too

Even some Vampire too, since Demon never bothered to tie-in or mention the Baali nor the First or Second cities of Vampire... If apparently they were active and directly there when Caine was cursed, why all that time they were fighting the Heavenly Host with their own batch of humans did no interaction or insight to those cities never occur? ....It was just a really bizarre gameline.

[CTPhipps]

This sentiment here is what starts all these messes and why people argue about this almost 30 years later. They did not. The old agww usenet group was quite illuminating in that regard. Most of the people working on those games were freelancers or staff editors with their own pet peeves and projects and focus on singular game lines. Yet, due to the supplement treadmill and the impending End of the Line more and more people had to work with material they were unfamiliar with or that they didn't even care about.

Demon is an especially egregious offender because the "hollistic" view it presents actively rains on Mage, Werewolf and Wraith* which tends to really, really antagonise people who are into those games.

* and by extension Kindred of the East which is essentially Werewolf + Wraith masking itself as a Vampire supplement

This is nonsense.

Michael B. Lee (Line Developer), Steve Kenson, Lucien Soulban, Greg Stolze, Adam Tinworth, Pauline Benney (art director)

And Demon: The Fallen doesn't rain on Mage or Werewolf anymore than they rain on Vampire: The Masquerade.

*and don't forget Changeling and Hunter: The Reckoning too[/SIZE]

Even some Vampire too, since Demon never bothered to tie-in or mention the Baali nor the First or Second cities of Vampire... If apparently they were active and directly there when Caine was cursed, why all that time they were fighting the Heavenly Host with their own batch of humans did no interaction or insight to those cities never occur? ....It was just a really bizarre gameline.

This is a silly complaint since most demons don't remember the past very well.

[Resplendent Fire]

This sentiment here is what starts all these messes and why people argue about this almost 30 years later. They did not. The old agww usenet group was quite illuminating in that regard. Most of the people working on those games were freelancers or staff editors with their own pet peeves and projects and focus on singular game lines. Yet, due to the supplement treadmill and the impending End of the Line more and more people had to work with material they were unfamiliar with or that they didn't even care about.

Demon is an especially egregious offender because the "hollistic" view it presents actively rains on Mage, Werewolf and Wraith* which tends to really, really antagonize people who are into those games.

* and by extension Kindred of the East which is essentially Werewolf + Wraith masking itself as a Vampire supplement

Yeah, I was active on agww from the early 90s onward, and that first paragraph is incorrect. I know that a lot (not all, or necessarily even most) fans who themselves tended to focus primarily or even exclusively on a single line tended to view the freelancers and line developers as similar, but this isn't true, and it's not a fair characterization. Especially with regards to core books which get more attention and development time.

That fans on agww believed things about the line developers and freelancers doesn't actually mean those perceptions were accurate. By and large they were not privy to any given book's development cycle, nor any line's development cycle as a whole. That process is largely opaque to fans who have not actually worked in the industry. I've known several line developers and quite a few freelancers and they simply do not fit into the perception you describe here. I was there, and I know a lot of it was the fans themselves projecting their preferences and pet peeves onto each games' production cycle and the people involved. That doesn't mean it never happened, but it's simply not the case that it was how things normally operated.

The best way to understand how the sausage is made in the RPG industry is to make some sausage and see. And then see how the fans take it apart and read stuff into it that may not even exist. Or see how a particular part is misremembered and mutated over the years as it simply becomes "received wisdom" without any reference to the original text, and that's something that happens here quite frequently.

The second paragraph is just the arguments about Werewolf and Mage being the ultimate WoD arbiters or just another cosmology all over again. Every game line purports to present the "truth" with nods to the other lines. Some, like Vampire and Wraith do not seem to display much knowledge of the greater WoD, while others like Werewolf, Mage, and Demon, purport to explain almost everything even though there are contradictory claims in every single game line. It was understood at the time that the WoD games weren't really designed to fully crossover with compatible cosmologies, and bringing them together would cause cosmological conflict that should either be resolved or handwaved away.

That Demon provided its own explanations for Caine, the Shadowlands, Oblivion, awakened magick, etc is no more binding or necessarily accurate than Changeling claiming Caine was a redcap or the Garou belief that vampires are wyrm creatures. I also don't think the Charon in the ST Companion is the Charon in Wraith. The first Charon was likely imprisoned with the rest, and likely still there. What, in any practical sense, would Demon do to interfere with other WoD game lines? Does it alter how you play or run any of the other lines? Does the existence of demons who think that Caine's murder of Abel created Oblivion actually change anything about Wraith?

Demon doesn't even attempt to address Werewolf, except to say they think the Garou (and by extension other changing breeds) must have had divine origins. But they know nothing about them, Luna, Gaia, the Triat, etc.

Demon does make the claim that humans were created with the "divine spark" that allows for awakened magick, but why is this seen as more credible than other lines' explanations and thus raining on Mage?

*and don't forget Changeling and Hunter: The Reckoning too[/SIZE]

Even some Vampire too, since Demon never bothered to tie-in or mention the Baali nor the First or Second cities of Vampire... If apparently they were active and directly there when Caine was cursed, why all that time they were fighting the Heavenly Host with their own batch of humans did no interaction or insight to those cities never occur? ....It was just a really bizarre gameline.

Demon mentioned Enoch by name on page 51, saying that Caine went into the East in a blasted land called Nod and built his own city. It's also heavily implied that Caine and his personal projects were outside the scope of what the Fallen were doing.

As far as the Baali go, the Earthbound seem to be very similar to the Children mentioned in Clanbook: Baali. Also, even though Earthbound servants can include vampires, Demon doesn't mention any clan or bloodline by name, so why that one in particular? If you don't have Vampire: The Masquerade you can do what you want with the information in core book and the ST Companion, and if you do you can just refer to V:tM material for more information.

[Asmodai]

This is nonsense.

Michael B. Lee (Line Developer), Steve Kenson, Lucien Soulban, Greg Stolze, Adam Tinworth, Pauline Benney (art director)

And Demon: The Fallen doesn't rain on Mage or Werewolf anymore than they rain on Vampire: The Masquerade.

And who of these fine people worked on Mage, Werewolf or Wraith? It's less of a nonsense than assuming that DTF is any more correct in its assumptions about how the universe at large works.

Yeah, I was active on agww from the early 90s onward, and that first paragraph is incorrect. I know that a lot (not all, or necessarily even most) fans who themselves tended to focus primarily or even exclusively on a single line tended to view the freelancers and line developers as similar, but this isn't true, and it's not a fair characterization. Especially with regards to core books which get more attention and development time.

That fans on agww believed things about the line developers and freelancers doesn't actually mean those perceptions were accurate. By and large they were not privy to any given book's development cycle, nor any line's development cycle as a whole. That process is largely opaque to fans who have not actually worked in the industry. I've known several line developers and quite a few freelancers and they simply do not fit into the perception you describe here. I was there, and I know a lot of it was the fans themselves projecting their preferences and pet peeves onto each games' production cycle and the people involved. That doesn't mean it never happened, but it's simply not the case that it was how things normally operated.

The best way to understand how the sausage is made in the RPG industry is to make some sausage and see. And then see how the fans take it apart and read stuff into it that may not even exist. Or see how a particular part is misremembered and mutated over the years as it simply becomes "received wisdom" without any reference to the original text, and that's something that happens here quite frequently.

I may be old, but i'm not senile. The authors we've had on agww had strong opinions on how WoD worked and why it worked, it was mostly informed by the games they wrote for without much care for a singular hollistic WoD. As for the sausage, there was enough grist there to see that White Wolf was producing stuff to supply niches at a steady pace without even using the same people for the same things.

The second paragraph is just the arguments about Werewolf and Mage being the ultimate WoD arbiters or just another cosmology all over again. Every game line purports to present the "truth" with nods to the other lines. Some, like Vampire and Wraith do not seem to display much knowledge of the greater WoD, while others like Werewolf, Mage, and Demon, purport to explain almost everything even though there are contradictory claims in every single game line. It was understood at the time that the WoD games weren't really designed to fully crossover with compatible cosmologies, and bringing them together would cause cosmological conflict that should either be resolved or handwaved away.

The point is that for some reason people assume that it's more correct and keep referencing it in relation to any other game. Which is a folly. There is no true arbiter of WoD Truth. There is only the gameline you're playing right now.

[CTPhipps]

The point is that for some reason people assume that it's more correct and keep referencing it in relation to any other game. Which is a folly. There is no true arbiter of WoD Truth. There is only the gameline you're playing right now.

I agree. The developers actually stated outright that every line is "correct" in its home game. Werewolf's cosmology was NEVER true in V:TM and vice versa.