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    • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
      It's also heavily implied that Caine and his personal projects were outside the scope of what the Fallen were doing.
      But why and HOW was it out of the scope of the Fallen? Why was there no reactivity to researching Caine further after "he committed the first murder" to finally allow them to fight the Heavenly Host for real? Why did none of them observe the development of the 2nd Generation or 3rd Generation? And vice versa, why did Caine or any any his childer (beside the Baali as I'll mention) interact with them or get involve in any of the wars of the Fallen? D:TF is the line more closest to V:TM in terms of the Abrahamic mythological overlap and Demon was the opportunity to more greatly explain background of oWoD, but it felt like it didn't want to dive deep in all the years of past build up and just do a plain Genesis story.

      Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
      Also, even though Earthbound servants can include vampires, Demon doesn't mention any clan or bloodline by name, so why that one in particular?
      What in the world are you talking about? The Baali out of ANY part of Vampire would be important to Demon; but they aren't mentioned a SINGLE time in Demon, at all. No explanation for the Baali wars, no contact between the Baali and the Fallen whatsoever, not even anything. The Baali didn't commune with Earthbounds because (correct me if I'm wrong), they used demonic entities with physical bodies as allies to war against Caine in the Baali wars. What are the Demons the Baali are communing and contacting with (or able to summon) if they aren't Fallen? Why doesn't D:TF explain this?

      You claim the developers who made Demon were privy or knowledgeable to other lines, but I see no evidence of this with no touch-ups at all that just make plotholes if you ponder them more deeply. I would be of the belief that this bloodline would be important or at least a small reference to D:TF, but that isn't the case. D:TF was the last game before the shutdown of oWoD and they had so much material to comb through to at least make it more compatible with the other lines and make it an ACTUAL creationist-line to explain the WoD universe as whole (all the lines essentially), but they didn't and its just a Genesis story. It was a missed opportunity.

      Originally posted by CTPhipps
      Werewolf's cosmology was NEVER true in V:TM and vice versa.
      Every single game after V:TM and before D:TF built off of eachother where it could be very compatible or practically seamless with its cosmology. Even Hunter: The Reckoning which I thought would be closer to D:TF with all its slight motifs putting it as such is more actually closer to KotE, in which further KotE is the most compatible of all the lines. D:TF could've carried this on but completely curbed it instead of being interesting and flipping what we know about Abrahamic demons on its head with something really out there like all the other gamelines did.
      Last edited by Shakanaka; 12-01-2020, 04:52 PM.


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      • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

        But why and HOW was it out of the scope of the Fallen? Why was there no reactivity to researching Caine further after "he committed the first murder" to finally allow them to fight the Heavenly Host for real? Why did none of them observe the development of the 2nd Generation or 3rd Generation? And vice versa, why did Caine or any any his childer (beside the Baali as I'll mention) interact with them or get involve in any of the wars of the Fallen? D:TF is the line more closest to V:TM in terms of the Abrahamic mythological overlap and Demon was the opportunity to more greatly explain background of oWoD, but it felt like it didn't want to dive deep in all the years of past build up and just do a plain Genesis story.
        Do you really want a huge digression into reiterating the Book of Nod in a game that's not actually about vampires? When Vampire is right there and you can refer to that? And do you really want to shift goalposts here? Your original comment was that it doesn't even mention Enoch, which it does.

        And the Second City is out of scope for DtF because it likely took place after the Fallen were imprisoned in the Abyss.

        Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
        What in the world are you talking about? The Baali out of ANY part of Vampire would be important to Demon; but they aren't mentioned a SINGLE time in Demon, at all. No explanation for the Baali wars, no contact between the Baali and the Fallen whatsoever, not even anything. The Baali didn't commune with Earthbounds because (correct me if I'm wrong), they used demonic entities with physical bodies as allies to war against Caine in the Baali wars. What are the Demons the Baali are communing and contacting with (or able to summon) if they aren't Fallen? Why doesn't D:TF explain this?
        I'm talking about how the White Wolf games were developed in the 90s and early 2000s. If you personally feel that the Baali are important to Demon, you can use them in Demon. The books are written for anyone who picks them up, which would include people who don't own or play Vampire, and may not or care about the clans and bloodlings, and who would certainly not know about the Baali given they're not really a front and center part of V:tM. Essentially you're complaining that White Wolf didn't do work for the game that you could easily do for your own games if it matters that much.

        But no WoD game was designed to specifically accommodate any other game. Even Hunter, which is about hunting the protagonists in other game lines, has its own rules for vampires, werewolves, etc. Vampire has its own rules for "Lupines," Werewolf has its own rules for "leeches," and so on. If Demon specifically set out to mention obscure factions in another game, that'd make it rather unique among all the games, and not necessarily in a good way. Such a thing might even be read as an advertisement for Vampire.

        Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
        You claim the developers who made Demon were privy or knowledgeable to other lines, but I see no evidence of this with no touch-ups at all that just make plotholes if you ponder them more deeply. I would be of the belief that this bloodline would be important or at least a small reference to D:TF, but that isn't the case. D:TF was the last game before the shutdown of oWoD and they had so much material to comb through to at least make it more compatible with the other lines and make it an ACTUAL creationist-line to explain the WoD universe as whole (all the lines essentially), but they didn't and its just a Genesis story. It was a missed opportunity.
        I say this because I know who the designers are and I know the work they've done. You can go to the White Wolf wiki and look at the lines they've worked on and see that collectively they've worked on virtually every White Wolf game line. And none of the WoD game lines were written to be or even intended to be compatible with the other game lines. Crossover rules typically showed up in supplements such as Storyteller Handbooks if they showed up at all. I also recognize six of the authors' names and know they knew the WoD at the time. Also, the way development works is not that someone randomly tell a bunch of people to write parts of a book and end up with an unrecognizable patchwork. The developer (or designers in this case) puts together an outline describing in explicit detail what each section is, what it should contain, how many words it should be, and who's going to write it. Then the writers (ideally) write their assigned sections and return these drafts to the developer. The developer then goes over everyone's writing and marks grammatical errors as well as adding clarifications and instructions on what content should be there that isn't, what is there that shouldn't be or what needs to be changed about content that is there and should be there. This is called "redlines."

        Further when it came to proposing new game lines and deciding what they should be, this would involve several people, and in general I think Ken Cliffe had final say. I know he'd ask how to get characters involved if players designed characters who didn't want to do anything. I don't want to advance any theories as to how this question was answered in each game line that went through this process, but I want to make it clear that this was a process in WWGS/WWP in the mid-late 90s and early 2000s.

        Also, Demon says the Genesis story was one layer of reality, but that evolution was another, that it took seven days in one layer, and billions of years in another. It also says that multiple things were true at once, and even that reality was countless layers during creation, even if most of those layers are gone or compressed in the modern day. It's in the book - literally the first fiction piece, which constitutes the entirety of Chapter One.

        Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
        Every single game after V:TM and before D:TF built off of eachother where it could be very compatible or practically seamless with its cosmology. Even Hunter: The Reckoning which I thought would be closer to D:TF with all its slight motifs putting it as such is more actually closer to KotE, in which further KotE is the most compatible of all the lines. D:TF could've carried this on but completely curbed it instead of being interesting and flipping what we know about Abrahamic demons on its head with something really out there like all the other gamelines did.
        This is directly contradictory to how every game line was developed. Werewolf did not build off of Vampire, it did its own thing. Mage did not build off Werewolf or Vampire, it did its own thing, and so on. There were clear parallels and overlaps, but overall each line was independent of the other WoD lines and did not need those other lines to be complete.

        Hunter references two entities also mentioned in Kindred of the East, but a) that's not compatibility, b) KotE was not an independent game line but rather an extension of Vampire: The Masquerade, and c) the only real correlation is the barest connection to Exalted which is essentially meaningless in the WoD.

        Demon is fairly standard for WoD games. It presents a legendary/mythical archetype and gives us a version we can play as characters in RPGs. None of the game lines were intended to "flip what we know about" anything, and there's no such thing as "Abrahamic demons." Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are three different religions, with different takes on angels, demons,and the afterlife. Demon: The Fallen doesn't really present something that's directly compatible with any one of those religions, but presents a history that could be interpreted through the lens of those three religions. After all, Lucifer in Demon: The Fallen opposes the demons, and does not lead them. That is a bit different from the standard representation - the demons aren't sent to a Hell that serves as an afterlife, they were locked in a prison that forced them to endure humanity's pain for millennia. All demons weren't imprisoned there, Lucifer wasn't imprisoned, and those imprisoned only escaped because of the Sixth Great Maelstrom. This is a take distinct from each of the three religions in question.

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        • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
          Werewolf did not build off of Vampire, it did its own thing. Mage did not build off Werewolf or Vampire, it did its own thing, and so on. There were clear parallels and overlaps, but overall each line was independent of the other WoD lines and did not need those other lines to be complete.
          Almost every single line after V:TM had more or less cosmological compatibility- I'm not talking about the meat of their stories or innate mechanics, I'm talking about how after every line the new one took note of the previous one and added more stuff that could be readily cross-compatible. Werewolf was the one to hitch it off starting with the Umbra, then Mage carried that on. Within that the cosmological lore of universe gets more concrete and bigger, but not in the way where there is one definitive truth- it plays one another. Wraith was then added which primarily dealt with the Low Umbra from what was introduced in Werewolf. Then Changeling came that dealt with another interdimensional reality that was somewhat aligned with the High Umbra, but it was purely of a new separate reality called the Dreaming. These were all or less compatible with eachother and set some universal precedent that was tying the game together.

          Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
          a) that's not compatibility
          What? How is it not when its directly making a lore connection that connects lines?

          Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
          b) KotE was not an independent game line but rather an extension of Vampire: The Masquerade
          It was only a supplement for it for the barest of times like Mummy until it was already its own thing. What's your point in mentioning it anyway? Because then if you consider KotE just a mere supplement of VTM then by that fiat alone VTM would be connected with Hunter and many of the other gamelines because KotE was literally crossover central of bridging the gaps.

          Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
          c) the only real correlation is the barest connection to Exalted which is essentially meaningless in the WoD.
          Who the heck mentioned Exalted? The Heralds from H:TR and KotE are completely within the WoD setting alone through the August Personage of Jade...

          Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
          None of the game lines were intended to "flip what we know about" anything
          Vampires are all fighting each-other in the a war of the ages called the Jyhad that is all attached to a group of god-like and unknowable Antediluvians, who all were attached to more primeval set that was embraced by the biblical Caine himself.

          Werewolves aren't the same lycanthropes that just scratch you and your a Werewolf next. Instead its this whole complex spirit-tribal society all focused on fighting an interdimensional malignant entity that has gone completely mad and out of order; a fight that they're losing and everything is amounting to pure desolution.

          Mages aren't Hogwarts or old wiry-men at all (well for the Hermetics), but scattered in varying groups formed into a confederation in response of another batch that aren't Mages, but a cold-frame organization hellbent on keeping reality ordered and static- basically the Men in Black. Both these groups vie against one another to shape reality itself and spread their influence among the "Sleepers". The greatest goal was reaching a point called Ascension, whatever may that be.

          Wraith on the surface was a typical "ghost game" where you were attached to the physical world still, but couldn't move on. However it was a gameline with an entire civilization parallel to the physical one despite undeath and this civilization was fully made of other ghosts hammered down as building material or general product. Not only that even more parallel to the aforementioned one, another dark and evil society in the form of "shadow-eaten" Wraiths called Spectres plot and strike out to feed everything into Oblivion; nothingness.

          Changeling wasn't a game where you could directly be a Fae, but instead you have to be constantly be reincarnated into a new mortal body everytime it expires due to the loss of common Dreaming in humanity. The goal was to re-foster it since the very survival of the Changelings depend on it. It was a game with themes about gathering what was lost from previous ages when you could be in your true form in its rawest sense, not only housed in a banal shell to protect against even more Banal things.

          None of these games were the usual perceptions what we think of these monsters and its funny you don't think they weren't flips on some standard narrative.

          Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
          Even Hunter, which is about hunting the protagonists in other game lines, has its own rules for vampires, werewolves, etc. Vampire has its own rules for "Lupines," Werewolf has its own rules for "leeches," and so on.
          Damn, you say all this.. but do you realize that D:TF didn't even give its own equivalence rules for these splats in at least its Antagonist part of the book? Like, not at all? At least the books you mention could somewhat do that at all, why couldn't this be the case in Demon?





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          • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

            Almost every single line after V:TM had more or less cosmological compatibility- I'm not talking about the meat of their stories or innate mechanics, I'm talking about how after every line the new one took note of the previous one and added more stuff that could be readily cross-compatible. Werewolf was the one to hitch it off starting with the Umbra, then Mage carried that on. Within that the cosmological lore of universe gets more concrete and bigger, but not in the way where there is one definitive truth- it plays one another. Wraith was then added which primarily dealt with the Low Umbra from what was introduced in Werewolf. Then Changeling came that dealt with another interdimensional reality that was somewhat aligned with the High Umbra, but it was purely of a new separate reality called the Dreaming. These were all or less compatible with eachother and set some universal precedent that was tying the game together.
            Every line to some extent contradicted the stated cosmology in most if not all of the other lines. This was a point of constant discourse on the vaunted "agww" newsgroup back in the 90s. Mage and Werewolf are directly contradictory in ways that are quite important to each line.

            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
            What? How is it not when its directly making a lore connection that connects lines?
            Hunter mentions the Ebon Dragon and the Scarlet Queen, creating a lore link with Kindred of the East.

            So Demon mentions Caine and Enoch, creating a lore link with Vampire: The Masquerade.

            Seems to me both are fine.

            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
            It was only a supplement for it for the barest of times like Mummy until it was already its own thing. What's your point in mentioning it anyway? Because then if you consider KotE just a mere supplement of VTM then by that fiat alone VTM would be connected with Hunter and many of the other gamelines because KotE was literally crossover central of bridging the gaps.
            Kindred of the East, like Mummy: The Resurrection, was not a complete core book. It didn't have the Storyteller system rules, requiring you to own another core game line to have those. Kindred of the East was never a standalone product.

            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
            Who the heck mentioned Exalted? The Heralds from H:TR and KotE are completely within the WoD setting alone through the August Personage of Jade...
            I mentioned Exalted because those two entities have parallels in Exalted (Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Empress in Exalted). This was because Exalted was originally designed to be the past of the World of Darkness. Some of this made it into Hunter: The Reckoning, implying that Hunters are weaker versions of Exalted. This was never official in any publication, just alluded to. Sometimes the allusion was more forceful than others, but it didn't really impact anything.

            My point was that the connection is fairly tenuous. It's there and it's valid, but Hunter in no way demands you know anything about Kindred of the East, let alone care that it exists. It's a standalone product, like Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Wraith, Changeling, Demon, and Orpheus.

            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
            Vampires are all fighting each-other in the a war of the ages called the Jyhad that is all attached to a group of god-like and unknowable Antediluvians, who all were attached to more primeval set that was embraced by the biblical Caine himself.
            This doesn't really flip expectations. Anne Rice presents a six thousand year long struggle amongst the first few vampires created in her books in Queen of the Damned. Having Caine be the first vampire is really about giving vampires an origin point and it makes thematic sense in the context of vampirism as a curse. Plus, George RR Martin wrote about Cain as the source of vampirism in Fevre Dream in 1982.

            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
            Werewolves aren't the same lycanthropes that just scratch you and your a Werewolf next. Instead its this whole complex spirit-tribal society all focused on fighting an interdimensional malignant entity that has gone completely mad and out of order; a fight that they're losing and everything is amounting to pure desolution.
            Okay, so White Wolf did not in fact invent the idea of lycanthropy that's not spread like a disease. GURPS and Shadowrun both had shapeshifters who were born that way just a few years before Werewolf came out. Werewolves as defenders of nature is kind of a logical extension, by giving them a pervasive and powerful enemy, as well as bringing attention to ecological issues. I don't really feel like that flipped expectations so much as went deeper into exploring the possibility of existing werewolves. I agree it was a bit unexpected, especially since prior to Werewolf we only had Vampire, which was very much based in the WoD's material reality with little spirituality.

            Werewolves have a few different ways in legend to be werewolves: https://www.history.com/topics/folkl...erewolf-legend

            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
            Mages aren't Hogwarts or old wiry-men at all (well for the Hermetics), but scattered in varying groups formed into a confederation in response of another batch that aren't Mages, but a cold-frame organization hellbent on keeping reality ordered and static- basically the Men in Black. Both these groups vie against one another to shape reality itself and spread their influence among the "Sleepers". The greatest goal was reaching a point called Ascension, whatever may that be.
            The Technocracy is made up of mages, they just call themselves something else because they're opposed to magic/k as a thing. However, I would argue they're not focused on keeping reality "ordered and static." More that they want to define the future of humanity's collective soul in a way that excludes the supernatural, despite using that same supernatural to achieve their ends. Also, the idea of technology vs. magic wasn't really a new one, and the Men in Black are decades old folklore linked to stuff like Mothman and UFOs. There was also a Men in Black comic book that ran during 1990 and 1991. The movies are based on these, but the comic had them going after paranormal stuff in general - aliens, demons, zombies, werewolves, vampires, and keeping the general public from finding out they exist.

            Every kind of mage in the Council in Mage: The Ascension is derived from some kind of real world or pop culture perception of magic or other supernatural abilities. For the Akashic Brotherhood, There's an entire film genre (wuxia) about supernatural martial arts. Verbena are witches and druids, the scary kind. Dreamspeakers are "shaman" (not the best word, lacking one better), the Order of Hermes is not so much "old men" as based on real world magical traditions such as the A.:A.:, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and others. Sons of Ether-type stuff goes back to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. Virtual Adept stuff is all over the place, but the earliest stuff I can think of that would mesh is Disney's Tron. Euthanatos/Chakravanti were a bit dodgy in terms of their original definition, but magic that interacts with death is an old idea. The Cult of Ecstasy/Sahajiya is literally based on ecstatic traditions that go back forever, and also has a big "shamanic" presence. The Celestial Chorus is based on monotheistic religious practices.

            Essentially, every Tradition is based on real world magical practices, fictional inspirations, or both.

            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
            Wraith on the surface was a typical "ghost game" where you were attached to the physical world still, but couldn't move on. However it was a gameline with an entire civilization parallel to the physical one despite undeath and this civilization was fully made of other ghosts hammered down as building material or general product. Not only that even more parallel to the aforementioned one, another dark and evil society in the form of "shadow-eaten" Wraiths called Spectres plot and strike out to feed everything into Oblivion; nothingness.
            This is the logical extension of creating an entire universe for Wraith to exist in. Some of the concepts in Wraith can be seen in The Crow (originally a comic), Ghost (starring Patrick Swayze) had very spectre-like entities, Jacob's Ladder. Flatliners,

            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
            Changeling wasn't a game where you could directly be a Fae, but instead you have to be constantly be reincarnated into a new mortal body everytime it expires due to the loss of common Dreaming in humanity. The goal was to re-foster it since the very survival of the Changelings depend on it. It was a game with themes about gathering what was lost from previous ages when you could be in your true form in its rawest sense, not only housed in a banal shell to protect against even more Banal things.
            The idea of fantastical beings reincarnated in human form wasn't something invented for Changeling. Brisingamen by Diana L. Paxson, Mage: The Hero Discovered/Defined/Denied by Matt Wagner, War for the Oaks by Emma Bull all have bits and pieces of what one can find in Changeling.

            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
            None of these games were the usual perceptions what we think of these monsters and its funny you don't think they weren't flips on some standard narrative.
            This is synthesis. Taking myth, legend, and folklore and building a world around them that they have context in, often in novel ways - and I agree these are often novel. This isn't a bad thing, it's actually a fairly good thing. As Mark Rein-Hagen once quoted in Vampire's first edition, "creativity is hiding your sources."

            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
            Damn, you say all this.. but do you realize that D:TF didn't even give its own equivalence rules for these splats in at least its Antagonist part of the book? Like, not at all? At least the books you mention could somewhat do that at all, why couldn't this be the case in Demon?
            These rules are in the Demon Storyteller Companion. I believe this happened to Mage: Revised as well, and Hunter had supplements to elaborate on each "monster type" the Imbued might encounter without simply referring people to the relevant entirely separate game line.

            Aside from Hunter, none of the core games needed stats for the other game lines. They weren't central to each game's conflict, and were generally provided to spark ideas for your own stories featuring such antagonists. Demon's conflicts involved the whereabouts of the Host and Lucifer, neither of which were being seen in the modern WoD, as well as newly freed demons trying to adjust to their new circumstances, and possible conflict with the Earthbounds' servants. You don't need stats for other supernatural beings to make that work. It's nice to have them, but Demon not having them in the core book is... indeed a gap, but not one that hurts the overall game. At least they did get them out in a supplement.
            Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 12-01-2020, 10:44 PM.

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            • What is this "agww" group that is mentioned? An old forum?


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              • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                All Good Information.
                I think your best dropping it, you've backed up all your assertions with actual quotes and information drawn directly from the printed material and all your met with is nu-uh and shifted goalposts. Its not worth the headache.

                I mean Dawkins worked directly on the two V20 Dark Ages supplements that spell out explicitly that Oblivion and the Abyss are completely seperate things so he knew he was changing things for V5. Now whether that was a directive from Parawolf or not...who knows?

                But its not worthwhile trying to convince people of things they don't want to hear.

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                • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                  What is this "agww" group that is mentioned? An old forum?
                  alt.games.whitewolf - it was a newsgroup for White Wolf games, which at the time of its creation were Ars Magica, Vampire, I think maybe Werewolf?

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                  • The Oblivion vs. Abyss discussion was asked to be put to bed. No more or infractions will be given.


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                    • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post
                      The Technocracy is made up of mages, they just call themselves something else because they're opposed to magic/k as a thing. However, I would argue they're not focused on keeping reality "ordered and static."
                      The closest the Technocracy has to a mission statement, the Precepts of Damian, has it in the first point "Bring Statis and order to the Universe. Predictability brings safety. Once all is discovered and all is known, Unity will be won." and the fourth "Define the nature of the universe. Knowledge must be absolute or chaos will envelop all. The elemental forces of the universe must not be left to the caprices of the unknown." . So it is not about just excluding what the Technocracy considers to be supernatural.

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                      • After one of my players lost his character recently due to sheriff-related agressions, my group now is a pure Hecata and Lasombra group. One thing I will enjoy is the possibility to use the CotBG ideas for Hecata-Camarilla plots.
                        The other thing is that I'd like to make Oblivion/the Labyrinth/the Shadowlands a bigger part of the chronicle.

                        Now I'm completely uninterested in wether the new conception is a retcon or not or if it's just a new rule mechanic for the same old metaphysical concept. I'm not doing werewolf or wraith crossovers and the way it is described in CotBG works for V5.

                        What interests me is: Under the V5-premise that the Lasombra and the Hecata draw from/relate to a common source. What kind of plots would you think are now possible? What kind of occult-ish plot-hooks would you suggest for a Hecata-Lasombra coterie?

                        Bonus question for V5-players: What chronicle tenets would you suggest for such a chronicle? I want to have one chronicle tenet relating to mortal morality, one tenet relating to politics and one relating to occult stuff.
                        So far I've got:
                        1. Don't kill the defenseless.
                        2. "A Mighty Fortress Is Our Camarilla. Ensure that it remains that way."
                        3. ?

                        I've thought about the tenet from the core rule book "When you stare into the void, the void stares back." What I want to do, is give the chronicle a little lovecraftian spin. Not too much, but both the Hecata and our abyss mystic should be prepared to pay a price/struggle.

                        I thought the question might fit the thread, because it's not about whether V5 did it wrong or not, but what to do with it.


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                        • As a V5 lasombra or Clan of Death 3.0, I'd like the conviction of 'Oblivion ain't bad and my touchstone... I guess he'd be a serial killer I'd point towards doing "good", a Dexter if you will. Because what really comes to mind when we think of Lasombra of any variety of corpse-fucker is apparently 'babysitter'.

                          How I'd get into the Camarilla as a lasombra? Surprise of course. You see, the Camarilla is such a raw deal that nobody would possibly think a lasombra would go for it, especially since the anarchs are now a tiger who's eaten half the dragon's flesh. So because no lasombra would possibly think any lasombra in their right mind would betray them for the sake of the dying Camarilla, it'd be really easy to betray them for the sake of joining the dying Camarilla.

                          Why not flee to the Anarchs instead as a Lasombra? Ehr... gee.... fuck.... someone'll have to get back to me on that one. I guess the Anarchs are the moral grey lot and Lasombra only wear black. Too typecast as a Heel to be considered a Face. But for Watsonian reasons I'm fucking stumped.


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                          • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary
                            my touchstone... I guess he'd be a serial killer I'd point towards doing "good", a Dexter if you will. Because what really comes to mind when we think of Lasombra of any variety of corpse-fucker is apparently 'babysitter'.
                            Damn, you just reminded me how hilarious this Touchstone system is. Why the hell do the "Hecata," the "Clan-Sect" primarily focused on the concerns of death and unlife... have to have Touchstones? In what sake is this even feasible or realistic? Also being a babysitter to a serial killer? LOL!

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary
                            Why not flee to the Anarchs instead as a Lasombra? Ehr... gee.... fuck.... someone'll have to get back to me on that one.
                            Actually this is a genius idea. The Lasombra SHOULD'VE mass defected to the Anarchs instead and subsume full control of that Sect, instead of groveling to the one of their centuries old rival, the Venture. If the writers as we presume wanted to kill off the Sabbat for whatever inane reason, just switching the Lasombra to the revanchist post-underdog sect that is directly against the Camarilla would've made MORE sense than what we have in V5.

                            That way the Venture and Lasombra could've kept their foil dynamic; and despite the Lasombra's whole Sabbat project bursting into flames (by writer's fiat), they at least suffer only minimal-to-slightly-moderate prestige lost instead of the embarrassments they are being put at the bottom of the pecking order in the Cam. Y'know, I predict that they might go with some metaplot that the Lasombra would actually try to scheme to pull the Camarilla out the rug from the Venture... I thought about this many times before.. but if it would become the actual case, then that would be very convoluted and unrealistic. The Venture have all the cards in their own house.. and this V5 Lasombra aren't crafty enough to go up against the Venture; for heaven's sake, they can't even use phones or certain pieces of technology.


                            Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                            • Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                              The closest the Technocracy has to a mission statement, the Precepts of Damian, has it in the first point "Bring Statis and order to the Universe. Predictability brings safety. Once all is discovered and all is known, Unity will be won." and the fourth "Define the nature of the universe. Knowledge must be absolute or chaos will envelop all. The elemental forces of the universe must not be left to the caprices of the unknown." . So it is not about just excluding what the Technocracy considers to be supernatural.
                              They also do science, meaning that they're committed to expanding what's known and understood about the universe and advancing technology of all kinds on the basis of that. The Precepts of Damian do not even begin to encompass their work.

                              Anyway, they can't both enforce stasis and actually do progress at the same time. And the primary thing they oppose is the supernatural. That's the unknown they want to eliminate. Not just the supernatural but the possibility of it. And that is something that's probably fundamentally impossible. Much like eliminating gravity or light.

                              The Technocracy you present here, in addition to being downright boring, only existed in Mage's first edition.
                              Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 12-02-2020, 10:24 AM.

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                              • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

                                They also do science, meaning that they're committed to expanding what's known and understood about the universe and advancing technology of all kinds on the basis of that. The Precepts of Damian do not even begin to encompass their work.

                                Anyway, they can't both enforce stasis and actually do progress at the same time. And the primary thing they oppose is the supernatural. That's the unknown they want 5o eliminate. Not just the supernatural but the possibility of it. And that is something that's probably fundamentally impossible. Much like eliminating gravity or light.
                                Well, the Precepts of Damian are the closest to the Technocracy's Conventions and the higher-ups can agree to. I disagree that enforcing statis is exclusive with progress. Compared to mystical Magick, the Inspired Science of the Technocracy is just the kind of Enlightened progress they want, imbued with statism and predictibility.

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