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KotE's perspective on Kindred is weird.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
    They may much more modern than Kindred, especially on elder level

    Some sects focus on modern world. The Electric Money Wickedness Club of Devil-Tigers. The Thousand-Faced Thunders of Thrashing Dragons, etc.
    And Thrashing Dragon book even has a Artifact credit card
    One of the things that the Zombie Survival Guide was crticized for was the fact that it acted like other nations were identical to the United States with liberal gun laws and mass proliferation of firearms as well as an active gun culture.

    Where in Hong Kong, they actively have microphones that know when a single gunshot goes off.

    Only the police and military have firearms.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by CTPhipps
      Why would they? They're illegal elsewhere in the world and acquiring them is incredibly difficult.
      And you legitimately believe the firearms in possession by Kindred and their retainers are legally owned either? Mortal laws have little weight to supernaturals due to how much they already influence or corrupt such institutions. The Kuei-Jin more than any supernatural (or "shen" as called in the Middle Kingdom) have the most influence in mortal society and control the few criminal organizations that are given leeway by the CCP in China (Triad and the other miscellaneous organizations). One of the most powerful factions of the Kuei-jin, the Blood Court, control BEIJING as their headquarters- the capital of China. It's also laughable to think they don't have control large portions of the military and the police. Acquisition as another turnpike to address here is mostly clear cut- out of anything, the Kuei-Jin obviously have the network and connections to easily obtain firearms in considerable margins.

      Originally posted by CTPhipps
      And why do you believe the Kuei-Jin, who are a deeply spiritual conservative group of mystics, control an atheist materialist organization like the CCP?

      I would presume the Cultural Revolution would be devastating to them.


      Yes and the Lasombra (and by proxy later on, the Sabbat) have been controlling the Christian church for centuries. What's your point?




      Jade Kingdom Warrior

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      • #48
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

        I think it was actually canonically that the Great Leap Outward was considered a complete waste of time and energy in-universe.

        Out of universe, I think it was established that it was the least well liked element of the Kuei-Jin introduction among fans.

        So later Kuei-Jin supplements had in-universe people talking about how racist and stupid it was.

        Edit:

        I think it really was just a bad idea attacking Los Angeles because the Anarchs are by and large the nastiest Neonates you'll ever find. All of them are hardened by urban warfare against the Camarilla and Sabbat as well as each other plus armed to the teeth. Unlike China, the gun culture is different too and it won't be difficult to arm themselves with the great technological equalizer.

        I honestly think the Wan Kuei would have been better off attacking Mexico as at least that place has the spiritual pure evil they're familiar with fighting.
        The first invasion, called the Ash Plan, was going great for the kueijin until the great maelstrom caused by the bombing of Enoch in early 1999. It caused mayhem destroying many kueijin, including mandarins. The Righteous Foreign Vanquishing Crusaders (as they called themselves) were depleted as the anarchs began to strike back. After the betrayal of his lieutenant Monkey Trip Wu, Mandarin Hao, the head of the whole operation, committed ritual suicide (meeting the Eye of Heaven).

        On the other side, the alternate plan that wasn't failing was under Jiejie Li, called Two Fang Serpent Plan. It consisted in recovering Shanghai from the Gaki akuma and establishing Hong Kong after the passover to the People's Republic of China in '97. After this, their whole resources would go towards western invasion and since Hao failed, Jiejie Li became the default head of the invasion.

        - Saga

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

          And you legitimately believe the firearms in possession by Kindred and their retainers are legally owned either? Mortal laws have little weight to supernaturals due to how much they already influence or corrupt such institutions. The Kuei-Jin more than any supernatural (or "shen" as called in the Middle Kingdom) have the most influence in mortal society and control the few criminal organizations that are given leeway by the CCP in China (Triad and the other miscellaneous organizations). One of the most powerful factions of the Kuei-jin, the Blood Court, control BEIJING as their headquarters- the capital of China. It's also laughable to think they don't have control large portions of the military and the police. Acquisition as another turnpike to address here is mostly clear cut- out of anything, the Kuei-Jin obviously have the network and connections to easily obtain firearms in considerable margins.
          I legitimately believe that Anarchs probably have 10 guns for every Kuei-Jin who has one and training. There's no reason for Kuei-Jin to train in them when they would train in in their supernatural powers. I legitimately believe that in combat, guns will be a great equalizer.

          I think the Kuei-Jin's control is vastly inferior to the Camarilla's in their territory. Which is good because flaws make characters interesting.

          If you believe they control the CCP then I'd like you to spell out what duties they're neglecting. Because vampires don't have an entire day and night to do what they want. The Kuei-Jin by having their whole "War on Hell" thing going simply cannot accumulate resources and influence the same way other vampires who do not have that restraint on them for. They also, kind of obviously, don't have mind control powers that regular Kindred do. Their power is purely social based.

          These weaknesses are what make conflicts against the Kindred of the West interesting.

          Yes and the Lasombra (and by proxy later on, the Sabbat) have been controlling the Christian church for centuries. What's your point? [/FONT]
          The Lasombra lost all control over religion during the Inquisition. They're only now rebuilding it. The Sabbat never had any interest in building mortal power. That's why the Grimaldi's exist.
          Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-18-2020, 12:18 PM.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            I legitimately believe that Anarchs probably have 10 guns for every Kuei-Jin who has one and training. There's no reason for Kuei-Jin to train in them when they would train in in their supernatural powers. I legitimately believe that in combat, guns will be a great equalizer.

            I think the Kuei-Jin's control is vastly inferior to the Camarilla's in their territory. Which is good because flaws make characters interesting.

            If you believe they control the CCP then I'd like you to spell out what duties they're neglecting. Because vampires don't have an entire day and night to do what they want. The Kuei-Jin by having their whole "War on Hell" thing going simply cannot accumulate resources and influence the same way other vampires who do not have that restraint on them for. They also, kind of obviously, don't have mind control powers that regular Kindred do. Their power is purely social based.

            These weaknesses are what make conflicts against the Kindred of the West interesting.



            The Lasombra lost all control over religion during the Inquisition. They're only now rebuilding it. The Sabbat never had any interest in building mortal power. That's why the Grimaldi's exist.

            They only lost factions of the church due to Fabrizio Ulfila. The Sabbat DID have interest in mortal affairs through the Kings and Queens of Shadow faction of the Lasombra.

            - Saga

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

              black wind users get an advantage in that black wind extra turns happen before celerity turns,
              Okay, sorry for late reply, but this was bugging me for a while until I finally found my KotE Companion. Black wind turns don't happen all at once unless you have an 8-dot discipline power. Black wind extra-turns function in all ways like celerity-derived extra turns.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Prometheas View Post

                Okay, sorry for late reply, but this was bugging me for a while until I finally found my KotE Companion. Black wind turns don't happen all at once unless you have an 8-dot discipline power. Black wind extra-turns function in all ways like celerity-derived extra turns.
                I'm referring to the rules in Vampire Storyteller's Handbook Revised (2000) which are the latest crossover rules for cainite/KJ (2 years later than KotE companion)

                when activating celerity, the extra turns happen next turn,
                same for Demon Chi and Yang Prana,

                Black Wind however gets the extra turns the same turn the chi is spent


                if we're using KotE companion rules, then kj are toast,

                because prior to the storyteller's handbook, they couldn't halve bashing damage if they were yang imbalanced,
                they couldn't resist presence unless they knew they were being targetted (how? I don't know),
                and they couldn't resist Dementation at all...

                ...not sure what the devs were thinking
                Last edited by Pleiades; 09-21-2020, 05:42 AM.


                -

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                  I don't know how it ended, but you're saying that kuei-jin don't take cainites seriously even though they got rekt in mexico and later hired anarchs,

                  the Genji often ally with sabbat and recognize paths of enlightenment,

                  the BP often allies with Anarchs, they even allied with Tremere once (which they regretted)

                  the quincunx allied with a Tremere,

                  the green courts accepted invited the nagaraja

                  I have cause to question the premise of your thread
                  I believe that there is a huge chasm between the way the high ranking members of the Quincunx think about Kindred and the way the average Wan Kuei down in the trenches thinks about them. Many of the older high ranking members tend to look down on everyone - "We're the heirs to the Wan Xian and we're better than you." For most of them, especially in major Courts in China (which is where the Cuincux holds its power) the majority of their knowledge of Kindred is the story of Saulot 'failing' in his training and maybe a couple of encounters with high generation vampires. As a result they tend to look down their noses on Kindred.

                  Things are different in other parts of the world such as in India where the many low generation Kindred largely broke any attempt by the Wan Kuei to take over for centuries (and it's worth considering that India was never really viewed as a "proper" Wan Kuei court and by the Quincunx elders, so the entire situation in India was viewed as a battle between barbarians and heretics neither of whom were their equal), or in California where most of the Wan Kuei were very young and were dealing with Kindred who were their age or older. In those cases the Wan Kuei have a considerable amount of respect for Canites, or at least recognition of their capabilities.

                  Kindred of the East, and most of the Dharma books were largely written from the perspective of older Wan Kuei who had spent most of their time in Asia and had had very little personal contact with Kindred indoctrinating younger Wan Kuei. And the reality is many elder Wan Kuei do look down on Kindred (and ghosts and werewolves and everyone), considering themselves physically and spiritually superior, and this ultimately proved to be a major weakness for them on many occasions. It's not so different from how many Canites looked down on mortals ("cattle") and we saw how the Second Inquisition went.
                  Last edited by AnubisXy; 09-21-2020, 06:28 PM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    I think it was actually canonically that the Great Leap Outward was considered a complete waste of time and energy in-universe.
                    If I recall while the thing came with a glorious sales pitch but there were also some in-character voices, at the time, making it clear that it was just an effort by the elders to weed out young trouble makers and make them go somewhere else or die.

                    "It takes young vampires hundreds of years to move through the ranks in the court system, and there's so many young bamboo princes these days it's started to cause our society to crack, so we'll tell them to go be heroes fighting in California and the survivors will come back as heroes or set up their own court over there and leave us alone." Basically it was always just the elders being assholes because elders are assholes. That's probably the biggest constant in VtM.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                      I'm referring to the rules in Vampire Storyteller's Handbook Revised (2000) which are the latest crossover rules for cainite/KJ (2 years later than KotE companion)

                      when activating celerity, the extra turns happen next turn,
                      same for Demon Chi and Yang Prana,

                      Black Wind however gets the extra turns the same turn the chi is spent


                      if we're using KotE companion rules, then kj are toast,

                      because prior to the storyteller's handbook, they couldn't halve bashing damage if they were yang imbalanced,
                      they couldn't resist presence unless they knew they were being targetted (how? I don't know),
                      and they couldn't resist Dementation at all...

                      ...not sure what the devs were thinking

                      That sounds about as well thought out as trying to "Balance" rock-paper-scissors by adding a new item that beats everything.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Prometheas View Post


                        That sounds about as well thought out as trying to "Balance" rock-paper-scissors by adding a new item that beats everything.
                        well, it won't beat obtenebration 5 or protean 5, and certainly won't beat a teleporting tremere...(can kj teleport?)

                        celerity users though...a brujah might still jump out of the way with potence or throw a car to slow them down. an assamite might try obfuscation. but a toreador...definitely dead before celerity kicks in


                        -

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                        • #57
                          Disciplines and powers have never been terribly well balanced, but the KotE ones especially so.

                          Consider a Wan Kuei with the Cry of Blood power from the Kiai Discipline can fairly consistently do in the vicinity of 30 levels of undodgable, unavoidable aggravated damage for 1 Yin Chi, and you could activate that power multiple times in a round in conjunction with Black Wind (3 times and you're looking at nearly 100 levels of aggravated damage). Short of plot-level characters like Antediluvians, I'm not sure that there's much in the WoD that could survive that at sort of onslaught, but that's not because Wan Kuei are intended to be that powerful but just because the writers poorly balanced that power.

                          Any "who would win in a fight" discussion needs to take into account that the authors absolutely did not balance the powers at all and therefore it's better to look, holistically, at the general capabilities of the Wan Kuei than to start picking out and examining individual powers.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                            Disciplines and powers have never been terribly well balanced, but the KotE ones especially so.

                            Consider a Wan Kuei with the Cry of Blood power from the Kiai Discipline can fairly consistently do in the vicinity of 30 levels of undodgable, unavoidable aggravated damage for 1 Yin Chi, and you could activate that power multiple times in a round in conjunction with Black Wind (3 times and you're looking at nearly 100 levels of aggravated damage). Short of plot-level characters like Antediluvians, I'm not sure that there's much in the WoD that could survive that at sort of onslaught, but that's not because Wan Kuei are intended to be that powerful but just because the writers poorly balanced that power.

                            Any "who would win in a fight" discussion needs to take into account that the authors absolutely did not balance the powers at all and therefore it's better to look, holistically, at the general capabilities of the Wan Kuei than to start picking out and examining individual powers.

                            Granted it is an elder level power and it's comparable to what an experienced werewolf can to with the right gifts. I guess the only take away is that WOD splats in crossover aren't really "balanced" in any meaningful way.

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