The Morality Thread - How evil are your Kindred?

[CTPhipps]

I thought this would be a good topic for our forum because it's come up in numerous discussions across multiple threads that everyone has a different opinion on just how blackhearted the NPCs of V:TM should be and what qualifies as an entertaining level of inhumanity for player characters. Some people really like playing Sabbat who have abandoned the morality of the cattle (and why not? They're not human anymore!) while other people feel like the game loses something if your characters aren't trying to struggle just a little against the mindless violence that is embodied by the Beast.

There's no wrong answer to this question because it's really, "Whatever works at your table." If the player characters are having fun, making them a group of Lawful Good vegetarian Salubri Knights slaying demons is still within theme just as the Sabbat who duct tapes a bunch of babies to himself as a shield before getting into a shoot out with the Second Inquisition.

(That happened at someone's table, I'm sure)

One fascinating conversation I had was with a fellow gamer who I thought was roughly similar to me in how he ran his games where I pointed that my player characters routinely executed Neo-Nazis and other irredeemable criminals to stave off their hunger while also drinking other types of people. He was horrified as the idea of killing ANYONE in his games was considered something that all Kindred should actively strive against.

We also argued at what point Humanity scores should "stabilize" for Kindred.

[Nicolas Milioni]

my are not that evil to be honest. many are ungodly selfish and hypocritical though

[Konradleijon]

Depends, they’re willing to murder people if there superior says so, and committed multiple hit and runs, but there not going to torture random innocent people, they do torture guilty people do.

[AnubisXy]

Overall I'd say killing is sort of uncommon in my group? For the most part at my table players tend to play vampires who tend to avoid killing, but if they're dealing with nasty criminals or people whom the character really doesn't like and those people give the vampire in question a reason to want them dead, then it's very possible the character will end up killing them. Mostly players sit in the 5-7 Humanity range, though Paths and Roads tend to be popular, especially when we play Dark Ages games or Sabbat games or games where those are options.

[Penelope]

My characters are not good with abstract concepts, but they generally try to avoid harming innocents in any way or killing others except for revenge or the greater good of the coterie (or in Julia’s case the good of her family and Clan Ventrue, but eventually the time came in game when she had to choose between her friends and her family/clan).

[Pleiades]

well what's your definition of evil exactly? killing count?

cause I mostly play sabbat, and the evil ones are usually the ones that are discouraged from killing

[Penelope]

well what's your definition of evil exactly? killing count?

cause I mostly play sabbat, and the evil ones are usually the ones that are discouraged from killing

Aren’t the Sabbat pretty much Anything Goes except Infernalism and collaborating with the Camarilla?

[CTPhipps]

Here's a rough chart for me:

The Camarilla: The Camarilla officially makes a statement that you're supposed to keep down on murder and death but it's mostly an issue of making sure that the bodies are disposed of. As long as you never lead a trail for the police, journalists, or families to follow then have at it. A lot of Camarilla vampires try to not feed enough to kill and it is considered the "normal" practice. Accidents happen, though, and you're expected to feed bad about it for a day or two. Regular murder for money happens a lot too because Kindred have freedom from consequences.

Elders are much-much worse and make each other worse if you hang around salons. Elders are jaded and bored so they do various horrific activities like kill for sport, keep slaves, and drain people dry at parties. People get thrown into meat grinders, shark tanks, and have their lives destroyed on a regular basis. Elders are basically mafia bosses AT THEIR BEST and gradually ascend to be Bond villains or wildly active serial killers. The rare Elder who has a lingering respect for human life tends to avoid Elder society.

The Anarchs: The Anarchs come in two flavors for me in the fact that there's the ones who very much value human life and the ones who very much do not. The former are ones who maintain something resembling a "normal" life and are hit much harder by frenzies or accidental killings than their Camarilla counterparts. There's Anarchs who try to feed exclusively on Animals (usually Gangrel, High Gen, or Nosferatu) or bagged blood that they force themselves on so they can't be controlled. It's a thankless, meaningless existence to try to feed without causing human deaths but the Anarchs sympathize more than the Camarilla. Except when they don't.

Because in equal numbers are the Anarchs who are just plain assholes. They see freedom as the freedom to kill, maim, and feed on whoever they want when they want. They are general all round scumbags and raise mayhem before moving onto the next town. They're the reason that a lot of Princes hate Anarchs as they leave the Masquerade for others to clean up.

The Sabbat: The Sabbat start with the Anarchs who raise hell, kill whoever bothers them, and ignore all consequences. However, the Sabbat actively encourage this behavior as way to break you of your human connections. If a Sabbat shows any humanity or connection, it's beaten out of them or they are starved until they frenzy with whatever connections probably in the room (like their spouse or baby or both).

Eventually, about a third of the Sabbat hit wassail and become wights. Their Pack either destroys them or lets them loose in the woods somewhere to be someone else's problem. The rest become so inhuman and jaded that they become receptive to a Path of Enlightenment. Paths are not actually EASY to follow and are like following strict Catholicism. They go full cult brainwashing on members and most of them eventually end up on at least the rudimentary levels of a Path that are alien, inhuman, and follow bizarre rules that have only the vaguest similarity to real world ethics.

The Elder Sabbat actually DON'T go out of their way to abuse or torture mortals. They also have absolutely no regard for human life. They eat, they kill, they use humans for products, and otherwise pay no attention to them.

[Penelope]

Here's a rough chart for me:

The Camarilla: The Camarilla officially makes a statement that you're supposed to keep down on murder and death but it's mostly an issue of making sure that the bodies are disposed of. As long as you never lead a trail for the police, journalists, or families to follow then have at it. A lot of Camarilla vampires try to not feed enough to kill and it is considered the "normal" practice. Accidents happen, though, and you're expected to feed bad about it for a day or two. Regular murder for money happens a lot too because Kindred have freedom from consequences.

Elders are much-much worse and make each other worse if you hang around salons. Elders are jaded and bored so they do various horrific activities like kill for sport, keep slaves, and drain people dry at parties. People get thrown into meat grinders, shark tanks, and have their lives destroyed on a regular basis. Elders are basically mafia bosses AT THEIR BEST and gradually ascend to be Bond villains or wildly active serial killers. The rare Elder who has a lingering respect for human life tends to avoid Elder society.

The Anarchs: The Anarchs come in two flavors for me in the fact that there's the ones who very much value human life and the ones who very much do not. The former are ones who maintain something resembling a "normal" life and are hit much harder by frenzies or accidental killings than their Camarilla counterparts. There's Anarchs who try to feed exclusively on Animals (usually Gangrel, High Gen, or Nosferatu) or bagged blood that they force themselves on so they can't be controlled. It's a thankless, meaningless existence to try to feed without causing human deaths but the Anarchs sympathize more than the Camarilla. Except when they don't.

Because in equal numbers are the Anarchs who are just plain assholes. They see freedom as the freedom to kill, maim, and feed on whoever they want when they want. They are general all round scumbags and raise mayhem before moving onto the next town. They're the reason that a lot of Princes hate Anarchs as they leave the Masquerade for others to clean up.

Agree with everything you just said. What do you think about the Sabbat?

[Taggie]

IMHO, all kindred are post human predators, so ask the ant how it views the exterminator, or the deer about the hunter. Those that cling to Humanity are delusional at best, and by far the most at risk of wassail , the only exception being Humanity based Golconda seekers.

But then that has always been the type of vampire story I prefer, in most genres.

Which does lead me to viewing the Camarilla and Anarchs as delusional degenerates, a view apparently completely the opposite of Onyx Paths and WW (who was it that was really insulting about the Sabbat and the people who prefer them in the revised era? And who rammed the Sabbat onto humanity, thus utterly ruining the sect?)


Basically to me a vampire having a humanity score makes as much sense as a human having an ape track.

I come to the world of darkness, for darkness not angst, Call of Cthulhu does that better

[Pleiades]

Aren’t the Sabbat pretty much Anything Goes except Infernalism and collaborating with the Camarilla?

the Sabbat is complicated, they have many factions in it,
some love to ghoul, others think you shouldn't be allowed to ghoul,
some say blood magic is cool, others want all mages to burn,
some kill caitiff and thin bloods, others don't care...it would take me more than a few posts to sum up all the different ideas and how they cohabit

as far as killing goes, sabbat are still subject to morality,
even if they're not on humanity, paths have their do's and don'ts,
certain paths would allow casual killing or eliminating the weak or even diablerie but would ban revenge killing or killing because one is a neo nazi or whatevs

CTPhipps measuring evil with a killing meter is a bit reductive imo,
you should have titled this thread as "how murderous are your kindred"

[Penelope]

Thank you. Idk that much about the Sabbat. Sounds like they’re very factionalized. And each Path seems to have its own morality.

[CTPhipps]

CTPhipps measuring evil with a killing meter is a bit reductive imo,
you should have titled this thread as "how murderous are your kindred"

Which would be the case if I remotely handled it that way.

Agree with everything you just said. What do you think about the Sabbat?

Just added my view on the Sabbat!

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

many are ungodly selfish and hypocritical though

That is evil, though.

[CTPhipps]

That is evil, though.

Sabbat: Is it evil to consider mortals to be valueless as anything but food?

Anarch: YES!

Sabbat: Well now you're just prejudiced!