Brainwashing in V5

[Argonot]

Hi.

Im thinking about using a vampire antagonist whose modus operandi is brainwashing mortals from a specific population group into believing being enslaved is the right state to be for their people.

What disciplines could you use to brainwash someone like that, using the V5 rules? Is Dominate enough?

[CTPhipps]

Hi.

Im thinking about using a vampire antagonist whose modus operandi is brainwashing mortals from a specific population group into believing being enslaved is the right state to be for their people.

What disciplines could you use to brainwash someone like that, using the V5 rules? Is Dominate enough?

Dominate is about making a person obey, not really changing their opinion. I think that's more Presence.

[Argonot]

Dominate is about making a person obey, not really changing their opinion. I think that's more Presence.

What about the level 4 power: Rationalize ?

[Pleiades]

Hi.

Im thinking about using a vampire antagonist whose modus operandi is brainwashing mortals from a specific population group into believing being enslaved is the right state to be for their people.

being enslaved to what? the vampire antagonist?

[Argonot]

Full context:

The story is set in the 1940s. The antagonist is a nazi Ventrue whose prey exclusion are jews (only takes susteinance from jewish blood). For obvious reasons, he doesnt want to exterminate jews, but knows their "right place in society"...as cattle. He wants to start his own concentration camp full of jewish families which will be his Herd. He wants them to behave (so internal vigilance wouldnt be necessary), and theres no better way of achieving that, that convincing those people of such bullshit...through supernatural means.

This is meaningful because one of my players is playing a Hermetic jewish woman. I want her to confront the horror of seeing some of her own people repeating nazi rubbish and defending their current state like it was the ultimate truth. I want her Mage party to try to undo that brainwash via Mind magic...if they can save someone after they kill the vampire, of course.

[Pleiades]

then blood bond it is, you might need associates if the community you're trying to bond is large

I'd say dominate 3 - forgettful mind should do as well (plus dominate 5 - mass manipulation if you're targetting a large community),
problem is it's going to be a lengthy and tedious process, since you have to alter alot of memories to affect their attitude,
and it may not be premanent, requiring repeating the process

it used to be easier in previous editions, since you could interrogate the victim iirc, and delete memories

[Argonot]

But, can you blood bond people without turning them into ghouls?

[elmerg]

But, can you blood bond people without turning them into ghouls?

Well, you could bond them and then let the ghoul 'wear off' and only give them a 'refresh' on their bond when it's ready to go down a step. But they'd initially be ghouled no matter what, since bonding has to be drunk directly from the vein.

[nicolai]

But, can you blood bond people without turning them into ghouls?

To create a ghoul you must feed him with a rouse check equivalent of vitae, but there is not stated in the rulebook the amount of vitae to create a blood bond, so I would say that just a couple of drops would be enough. So yes, you can create a blood bond without turning them into ghouls.

[Pleiades]

I'd say what you want is old dominate, not v5 dominate

there was a dominate 4 power called "conditioning" that made the victims into mind slaves that lacked initiative

problem with it is I don't think it can be undone with magic,
the victim would have to go through some recovery periode after being separated from their tormentor

[Argonot]

So, - going V5 - "Rationalize" is not useful for that?

[elmerg]

So, - going V5 - "Rationalize" is not useful for that?

Rationalize takes a dominate command and makes them come up with the internal reasons that the thing they did is their own thought. So long-term use of rationalize and dominate commands and forgetful mind to change people could be used as a brainwashing tool. Brainwashing isn't really a 'one and done' kind of situation, even in old editions, as the Conditioning power took lots of time to enact.

[Pleiades]

maybe instead of a ventrue, you could use a mage with enough mind and life to get a concentration camp and harvest quintessence from the prisonners

[Argonot]

maybe instead of a ventrue, you could use a mage with enough mind and life to get a concentration camp and harvest quintessence from the prisonners

That was my first thought, but they faced a widderslainte witch (who used children as raw materials to make miraculous potions) last time. Another mage antagonist this soon feels kind of...repetitive. Besides, the idea is that killing that vampire will set them in the middle of a storm regarding the local vampire comunity.

I think I will go with the Blood Bond + Presence formula. Or use Conditioning from V20.

Thanks, folks

[Desparen]

There's always the obvious: The Forgetful Mind, Level 3 Dominate. It'll take a lot of effort (unless you have Mass Manipulation (and ideally Irresistible Voice)), but it's clearly the best way to brainwash people. Just spend enough time creating memories so that they associate you with a saviour or parent or something, and it's easy. There's no explicit rules for it, but it's pretty clear you could create memories like that.