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Tremere equivalent of Horizon Realms

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  • Tremere equivalent of Horizon Realms

    I know they like to downplay the fantastical aspects of Sorcery in vampire but Humor me for a bit. I was always a fan of this idea that say the Vienna Chantry was mostly in a pocket dimension much like a Horizon Realm. And that is why it was mostly said to teleport around, it was just moving the earthly bits/gateway. I pictured it much like the underground city at the end of the first full metal alchemist series, mostly empty but it allows them to secretly keep a population of mortals for the upper members of the pyramid to feed upon.

    So when they were Mages they would have used nodes to anchor and fuel the reality of a Horizon realm but as Vampires they could either build a Chantry over a Node Or use rituals at a Chantry to transmute vast quantities of Vitae into a font of power directed into a realm, usually of a much more humble size then Vienna.

    Of the other blood Sorcerers I would think three Setite Bloodlines, Cappy’s Brood, and the Sorcerer Caste of Bani Haquim have had varying degrees of interest in this, such as with Alamut maybe having otherworldly layers and maybe being originally the Fortress of Djinn or even Angels, and Keymalki. Also Baba Yaga’s Chicken Hut I believe was much larger inside then out.

    The Tzimisce Kolduns I have as to tied to their earthly Domain, but they would have rituals to alter the rules of reality within.

    Thoughts?


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    I actually had this as something Zellios achieved with his castles and this was canonized by LA By Night.

    I will say I can't be the only person who thinks the Vienna Chantry teleporting was the silliest thing in the history of vampire, though. Right? If for no other reason than to get rid of that, it was a good decision to let the Second Inquisition slaughter the place.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #3
      So... like.... You can store yourself in a mirror-prison and study during the day?


      Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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      • #4
        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        So... like.... You can store yourself in a mirror-prison and study during the day?
        That is an interesting question.

        The THIRTY DAYS OF NIGHT question.

        "How long can a vampire stay up with no sunlight over their head?"


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
          I actually had this as something Zellios achieved with his castles and this was canonized by LA By Night.

          I will say I can't be the only person who thinks the Vienna Chantry teleporting was the silliest thing in the history of vampire, though. Right? If for no other reason than to get rid of that, it was a good decision to let the Second Inquisition slaughter the place.
          I mean that’s part of the intention of this, to make it make sense a bit more. Like what if why it appeared to teleport around was actually because you have gateways that shuffle and the chantry isn’t really moving it is just shutting down and reactivating other gates.

          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
          So... like.... You can store yourself in a mirror-prison and study during the day?
          Kind of, I already have rituals were sorcerers can make a library in their mind so they read in their dreams, or even when awake by concentrating. I would treat the day night cycle as being tied to the entrance though with maybe further rituals separating you from the day night circle in the realm. But books have pointed out without torpor vampires still spend one blood point every 24 hours and they have difficulties replenishing willpower without torpor, as well as sanity issues.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            Since the clans had no need to build fortresses outside of Earth, they have few rituals of this kind.

            Cainites have "equivalents" of Horizon Realms:
            • Oubliette and Abyss for Abyss Mystics
            • Koldun's Land for Tzimisce
            • Enoch for Black Hand
            • Madness Network - Malk
            • Mirror prison - Thaum ritual
            • There is (or is not) some Seth's dimension full of sand. The entrance is in some sarcophagus, if it is open - countless hordes of snakes will crawl.
            • I suspect that some necromancers have found or created some mystical-fortress in underworld.
            • Chimerstry can creat new "worlds", change reality and even send someone to your own universe.
            • Some Sadhana (or Wanga) ritual allow to create bubble of illusory reality. Within this space, everything obeys and works according to the will of the Cainite. If he wants all those who enter to turn into walking corpses and start flying, so be it.
            • There is some story about assamit & baali, Baali have "their" spiritual-mental dimension-prison. (dimension belongs to the powerful Earthbound.) One of the ways to get into this torture-world is to find "BODY" of this demon and "merge" with it.
            It is not difficult for vampires to create some shelter outside material world. It is much more difficult to create or find a small dimension in which the Cainite can stay. And much more often they use their powers to create shelters in the material world.

            I can imagine several options for how different clans create mini-worlds for themselves...
            Last edited by Alphari; 09-30-2020, 02:53 PM.

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            • #7
              It could be useful to create an otherworldly space for secrecy or safety like a kine ranch or a place to slumber or research.

              I am thinking it wouldn’t be on the Horizon like Magi use, but they would probably be unique to the ritual.


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #8
                Personally I think this would give vampires too much of an advantage. They already have a lot of great tricks that complicate things for other supernaturals, and giving them an extradimensional hiding space is just one too many. (Or if you prefer to think solely in vampire terms, it gives magic using vampires too much an advantage over other vampires).

                I like the idea that while the Tremere are masters of static magic (they should likely be the largest and most powerful group of static mages throughout the world), that they lost out big on any of the cool things only true Mages can do. They made a faustian pact, and that should be enforced. That's why things like Nodes aren't very useful to them. They derive their magic from the tass of their vampire vitae. It gives them a pool of very potent magic, but the price is that it limits them. (I know everyone will have their own theories on this, but this is mine).

                One problem with the Tremere is that giving them so many toys to play with ended up causing the other vampire clans to engage in an arms race (not so much the in-character world itself, but by the game writers and developers). So rather quickly instead of being monopolists on blood magic, the game kept giving everyone else some form of magic to compensate. So now the Tremere aren't anywhere near as unique as they once were. I think it's possible to create a situation that preserves the Tremere mystique while allowing alternate blood magic traditions at a much smaller scale. It's what I try in my own chronicles. And I think that's one of the reasons V5's developers went down their metaplot hole. But I think something like this would cause the arms race to blow up again, and pretty soon all vampires have some kind of extradimensional fortress (you're already doing it myself).

                So this isn't an idea that appeals to me. But everyone's tastes are different.

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                • #9
                  If everyone creates for themself a separate planet, that's a problem. But I don't think creating miniature pockets in space is bad.
                  I mean, nobody promises that it will be easy. Moreover, most Cainites are likely to use the help of spirits or create small pockets between dimensions, It is much easier for them to live in a small mirror or have an alliance with great spirit of local forest.
                  They dont need to create 100% isolated worlds, even mages dont create this (maybe becouse paradox like to do this).


                  Examples:
                  1) Oubliette is a small gap in reality that allows the Abyss to seep into reality. Also in this reality, over time, you will begin to see what is on the other side. However, this is not a "pocket dimension", just an area filled with eternal darkness. Even though the Void powers spawn in this area on their own, it doesn't make it easier to travel to or from the Abyss.

                  2) Tzimisce. They know the names of many forest spirits. Some of them can be mistaken for demons. The spirit of the Bialowieza forest allows you to summon a tower made of the bones of all dead in its forest. But if you asleep in it, you will be eaten by this tower (or spirit?)


                  Anyway, back to Usurpers.
                  Tremers (in older editions) could create bloody tass, and they could somehow use nodes to power their stone hounds. So there is a chance that they can use nodes.
                  After a little analysis of some of thaumaturgy paths, old rituals and necromancy, I can say that vampires have everything they need to do this.

                  They know how to create a mystical wall that separates them from others (Path of Neptune's Might - 4 and Mirror Prison), they can create items and simulacrums (Path of Conjuring), they can control the weather, they know alchemy and transmutation, they master rituals that can create an area with a "peaceful aura "(Sanctuary), and also know how to consecrate an area by dedicating it to their paradigm (Consecration of the Sanctum), create an aura of terror and fear, and teleport (Mirror Walk). They even can make some elemental guardians & spirit-slave servents.

                  This will require additional research and work. But they (most likely) can create it.
                  Last edited by Alphari; 10-01-2020, 05:01 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    I actually had this as something Zellios achieved with his castles and this was canonized by LA By Night.

                    I will say I can't be the only person who thinks the Vienna Chantry teleporting was the silliest thing in the history of vampire, though. Right? If for no other reason than to get rid of that, it was a good decision to let the Second Inquisition slaughter the place.
                    I had no idea whatsoever this was even a thing ever, honestly. When did that teleport thing come up?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                      I had no idea whatsoever this was even a thing ever, honestly. When did that teleport thing come up?
                      just pretend you never heard about it?

                      though, considering Tremere had awakened mages for a 100 years or so, it probably wasn't hard for them to teleport their chantry around,
                      and with path of mercury, they could probably make rituals that could teleport buildings

                      of course, none of this makes it any less stupid,
                      but since Tremere are always on top of the popularity lists,
                      the clan and their silly canon will never be retconned


                      -

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                      • #12
                        The path of mercury is that one path that makes me think...

                        yeah, nah, you're not getting that. I'll let them shoot balefire and cause orgasms with a touch, they can conjure gold anvils over heads, but they ain't blink-teleporting because they'll just cheese it every fucking time.


                        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          The path of mercury is that one path that makes me think...

                          yeah, nah, you're not getting that. I'll let them shoot balefire and cause orgasms with a touch, they can conjure gold anvils over heads, but they ain't blink-teleporting because they'll just cheese it every fucking time.
                          it's one of those NPC powers you'd use to either scare the PCs (Tremere Archon ambushing your sabbat pack) or to save the PCs (Lasombra Templar shadow stepping to distract a lupine who was attacking the pack)


                          -

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            The path of mercury is that one path that makes me think...

                            yeah, nah, you're not getting that. I'll let them shoot balefire and cause orgasms with a touch, they can conjure gold anvils over heads, but they ain't blink-teleporting because they'll just cheese it every fucking time.
                            I got to say Teleporting seems more appropriate as a ritual, like a failsafe measure where you break a glass bell and port back to your Ritual Sarcophagus. I wonder what about saying something like only the Sadhana Paradigm permits it or something.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              The path of mercury is that one path that makes me think...

                              yeah, nah, you're not getting that. I'll let them shoot balefire and cause orgasms with a touch, they can conjure gold anvils over heads, but they ain't blink-teleporting because they'll just cheese it every fucking time.

                              Yeah. Thaumurgy is normally pretty "balanced" in that paths are not as powerful as normal disciplines at the same cost unless you have it in-clan, in which case it's really versatile, but still expensive.

                              On the other hand a couple path like this one, the path of the focused mind(two discipline per turn as a reflex action), that assamite path awakening of the true steal(let me ignore your fortitude while I keep my potence and celerity), and the assamite path Hunter's winds(obfuscate, but better in every way) are so imbalanced that you have to wonder what the authors were thinking. A few rituals are like that as well, like that one anarch ritual that let's you farm XP from suicide cults.

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