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Tremere equivalent of Horizon Realms

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

    just pretend you never heard about it?

    though, considering Tremere had awakened mages for a 100 years or so, it probably wasn't hard for them to teleport their chantry around,
    and with path of mercury, they could probably make rituals that could teleport buildings

    of course, none of this makes it any less stupid,
    but since Tremere are always on top of the popularity lists,
    the clan and their silly canon will never be retconned
    I believe it and the White Worm were why the Vienna attack occurred. I fully predict a FALL OF VIENNA Chronicle where you play Technocract-backed Hunters.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

      just pretend you never heard about it?
      Easy, technically i didn't hear anyway.

      Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
      though, considering Tremere had awakened mages for a 100 years or so, it probably wasn't hard for them to teleport their chantry around,
      and with path of mercury, they could probably make rituals that could teleport buildings
      That's complicated, i would say - while retcons glossed it over, the truth of the matter is that the Tremere's history was originally conceived with Ars Magica magic in mind, that had its own set of requirements and limitations in relation to the Awakened magic of later editions, so not exactly.

      Anyway, it's one of these little things i make a big deal about - that the "art/world of magic" the Tremere knew is dead and gone, but magic was reborn in a different, alien form, that (kind of) dominates to the present. And then merrily rewrote the past along the way, making the magic they once knew and understood doubly dead.

      So the predictions that lead into their conversion into vampire clan were utterly correct and wrong at the same time. Obviously, it's a quite contentious subject many of the eldest in the clan are somewhat reticent on discussing in polite company.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
        On the other hand a couple path like this one, the path of the focused mind(two discipline per turn as a reflex action)
        No. You can only use 1 power from that path in one turn (even if you are using level 5 power). Even if you are using level 5, only mental actions are allowed. You can summon two fireballs, fight with a sword and think about the lies that you tell to prince. But you cannot make two attacks with a sword or attack someone and summon 2 fireballs becouse this is 3 actions.

        Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
        that assamite path awakening of the true steal
        I agree. Its very strange (and OP) magic. I still don't understand how 5 level works. Spirits and demons cannot pierce Fortitude normally. But for some reason the astral imprint on the blade gives this power to the blade. I would understand if it worked for magic-enchanted armor... but not for disciplines.

        I only know one way to fix such things. You and your ST must agree that "damage" and "health" in the rules do not always fit a logical or realistic description. I mean, if an Assamite pierced your liver, it shouldn't be as scary as it would be for a mortal. Maybe this should do less (or no) damage because you are a walking-corpse.

        Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
        Hunter's winds
        I disagree. There are many other paths with great potential or power.
        Obfuscate - is a Discipline that allows vampires to conceal themselves, deceive the mind of others, or make them ignore what the user does not want to be seen.
        This is "free" power that does not require special skills.

        First level of HW is only useful against dogs, wolves, few kindred, werewolves.

        Chameleon’s Skin - This is similar to power of banes or similar to first level of gargoyle discipline (although gargoyles are better at hiding, I think so). This is a portable magic camouflage, but anyone looking for an enemy can spot an assamite because it only changes the texture but does not mask perfectly.

        Unassuming Pose - just 1-2 levels of obfuscate.

        Kalif - It looks strange, dangerous, but I know at least one ritual and way to do this effect. This power does not allow attack, which means it is useful only against the first line of defense.

        Ghost Body - An almost spiritual existence. In the old editions there were references to "strange" events, some Assamites did not like to use this power. It also does not protect against magic and does not allow attacks or use ANY disciplines. + There is a similar ritual.

        Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
        A few rituals are like that as well, like that one anarch ritual that let's you farm XP from suicide cults.
        In fact, this ritual is ballance. Its also unique and different from powers available to other blood mages or other supernatural beings.
        You do not "farm" experience, you simply get near divine "insight" through the sacrifice of people. It takes a lot of people, a lot of time and preparation, poisons ... It is worth remembering that this is the equivalent of killing your entire herd and followers. You can gain more experience while preparing your cult.
        Last edited by Alphari; 10-02-2020, 05:09 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Alphari View Post

          No. You can only use 1 power from that path in one turn (even if you are using level 5 power). Even if you are using level 5, only mental actions are allowed. You can summon two fireballs, fight with a sword and think about the lies that you tell to prince. But you cannot make two attacks with a sword or attack someone and summon 2 fireballs becouse this is 3 actions.
          Originally posted by V20 Rites of the Blood pg. 139
          ...Developed by an unknown Tremere Kabbalah scholar, this Path of Thaumaturgy languished in obscurity until discovered in a lost chantry in Berlin after the end of the WWII. Interest in this Path quickly spread through the Pyramid as the adaptable Tremere realized its great potential and benefits. Unlike most Thaumaturgy, the powers of this Path do not require an action to invoke, although they still require the normal blood expenditure and Willpower activation roll. Thaumaturges with this Path may use any single power from this Path during a single turn.
          Originally posted by V20 Rites of the Blood pg. 140
          Successful use of Dual Thought allows the caster to take two actions without penalty during her turn. (Note that this power specifically lifts the restrictions of multiple actions detailed in V20, p. 248.) The extra action granted by this power must be a mental action, whether it’s the use of Disciplines such as the use of Auspex or Thaumaturgy, or the contemplation of some problem. If the character is using both actions to solve a problem, she has two separate dice pools to draw from. These two actions happen at the same time, as determined by the initiative rating of the character. You may not use the extra action to re-cast Dual Thought.
          The path does not require actions to invoke and the Level 4 ability dual thought explicitly categorizes thaum paths as "mental actions". Source the V20 rulebook rites of the Blood.

          Originally posted by Alphari View Post
          I agree. Its very strange (and OP) magic. I still don't understand how 5 level works. Spirits and demons cannot pierce Fortitude normally. But for some reason the astral imprint on the blade gives this power to the blade. I would understand if it worked for magic-enchanted armor... but not for disciplines.

          I only know one way to fix such things. You and your ST must agree that "damage" and "health" in the rules do not always fit a logical or realistic description. I mean, if an Assamite pierced your liver, it shouldn't be as scary as it would be for a mortal. Maybe this should do less (or no) damage because you are a walking-corpse.
          The core rules already simulate that by allowing vampires to soak lethal damage(getting stabbed in the lever) with stamina. The power does let you use stamina and/or armor to soak considering it ignores any offensive magic on the sword(no aggrivated damage) and defensive magic on the one getting hit(no fortitude or other disciplines), just not the sword user(potence, celerity, and any discipline transformations are fair game).

          Originally posted by Alphari View Post
          I disagree. There are many other paths with great potential or power.
          Obfuscate - is a Discipline that allows vampires to conceal themselves, deceive the mind of others, or make them ignore what the user does not want to be seen.
          This is "free" power that does not require special skills.

          First level of HW is only useful against dogs, wolves, few kindred, werewolves.

          Chameleon’s Skin - This is similar to power of banes or similar to first level of gargoyle discipline (although gargoyles are better at hiding, I think so). This is a portable magic camouflage, but anyone looking for an enemy can spot an assamite because it only changes the texture but does not mask perfectly.

          Unassuming Pose - just 1-2 levels of obfuscate.

          Kalif - It looks strange, dangerous, but I know at least one ritual and way to do this effect. This power does not allow attack, which means it is useful only against the first line of defense.

          Ghost Body - An almost spiritual existence. In the old editions there were references to "strange" events, some Assamites did not like to use this power. It also does not protect against magic and does not allow attacks or use ANY disciplines. + There is a similar ritual.
          The comparable rituals to the 4th and 5th dot powers take considerably more time and materials to get ready. The path effects on the other hand can be activated and de-activated as the vampire wills them, meaning the assamite in question can "Go-Ghost" any time they need to escape or sneak up on a target. The power also specifically states that the vampire isn't a true spirit and can't interact with ghosts or umbral spirits, which by extension means they can't interact with her.


          QUOTE=Alphari;n1416528]
          In fact, this ritual is ballance. Its also unique and different from powers available to other blood mages or other supernatural beings.
          You do not "farm" experience, you simply get near divine "insight" through the sacrifice of people. It takes a lot of people, a lot of time and preparation, poisons ... It is worth remembering that this is the equivalent of killing your entire herd and followers. You can gain more experience while preparing your cult.[/QUOTE]

          It really depends. A savvy vampire with dominate or presence could pull an easy following third world country that exists and hide the evidence easily. They wouldn't really even need social disciplines either, just three nights turning the native's blood into vitae to feed back to them and they'll have a retinue of loyal(and disposable) ghouls in less than a weak.

          Vampires are too good at social domination to have an ability that turns followers into XP, otherwise you'll have ancillae able to scrape together 30+ xp in a single night.

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          • #20
            I read through this thread and to be honest, this idea makes less sense than the Chantry just simply teleporting around with Thaumaturgy. Vampires barring Auspex (and they only ever get astral projected, not their whole bodies being able to go into it) cannot interact with or go into the Middle-Umbra whatsoever. The only parallel dimensional plane they can go into easily (provided they have the knowledge of it) is the Low Umbra. The Tremere Chantry teleports because of the sheer magical skill and knowledge of the Tremere clan. Its not silly whatsoever when their specialty is LITERALLY ALL ABOUT MAGIC and they LITERALLY used to be a House from the Hermetic Order...

            so no, the Second Inquisition getting an asspull to destroy one of the most magically enchanted strongholds in WoD makes little sense nor is the fact that the Chantry with the Elders of the most magical invested clan of Vampires is "stupid" that it can teleport.


            Jade Kingdom Warrior

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
              I read through this thread and to be honest, this idea makes less sense than the Chantry just simply teleporting around with Thaumaturgy. Vampires barring Auspex (and they only ever get astral projected, not their whole bodies being able to go into it) cannot interact with or go into the Middle-Umbra whatsoever. The only parallel dimensional plane they can go into easily (provided they have the knowledge of it) is the Low Umbra. The Tremere Chantry teleports because of the sheer magical skill and knowledge of the Tremere clan. Its not silly whatsoever when their specialty is LITERALLY ALL ABOUT MAGIC and they LITERALLY used to be a House from the Hermetic Order...

              so no, the Second Inquisition getting an asspull to destroy one of the most magically enchanted strongholds in WoD makes little sense nor is the fact that the Chantry with the Elders of the most magical invested clan of Vampires is "stupid" that it can teleport.
              I think the point is it was in all likelyhood sabotaged from the inside.


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #22
                "Dammit Grimgroth, AGAIN?!?"

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                  so no, the Second Inquisition getting an asspull to destroy one of the most magically enchanted strongholds in WoD makes little sense nor is the fact that the Chantry with the Elders of the most magical invested clan of Vampires is "stupid" that it can teleport.
                  I hate it but like FALL OF LONDON, it's almost certain the Fall of Vienna was another Methuselah's doing. Probably Tremere since we know the White Worm took over Etrius' mind.

                  The Second Inquisition isn't humanity finally rising up.

                  It's just another layer of the Jyhad.
                  Last edited by CTPhipps; 10-03-2020, 01:24 AM.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                    The path does not require actions to invoke and the Level 4 ability dual thought explicitly categorizes thaum paths as "mental actions".
                    This is what I wrote. You can burn some werewolf with 2 flamethrowers in your brain. But you cannot strike twice with the sword.
                    Rule also says that power of this path can be activated only once per turn.
                    So you cannot activate two powers of this path in 1 turn.

                    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                    The core rules already simulate...
                    I'm talking about different things.There are rituals in which you need to cut off your hand, this deals 1 lethal damage. There is a ritual for enchanting weapons, it requires cutting the hand with a stone or sword - 1 lethal damage. I just want to say that if someone used Celerity and hit - that hits shouldn't gut the target.
                    Seriously, why would a Cainite die if all his limbs were chopped off or his kidneys and liver cut out?

                    PS: I looked at the rules of this "path of the sword" yesterday. Final power (which ignores Fortitude) only works on the first hit. The ability can work 10 turns, but only the first hit will ignore Fortitude. So there is a chance of parrying, repelling or dodging the blow. It's dangerous, but not as bad as it could be.

                    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                    The comparable rituals to the 4th and 5th dot powers take considerably more time and materials to get ready.
                    Assamite can try to escape, but this is difficult (difficulty 8 + combat situation). Also in this state, undead can be caught, and vampire cannot use any disciplines.
                    Also... these rituals are several levels below. There is nothing wrong. Nothing prevents you from creating ritual that copies magic or magic that allows you to use ritual's effect.

                    Necromancy generally likes to do this; you can find rituals that are similar to powers of paths.
                    Thaumaturgy Trima & Vine of Dionis.

                    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                    The Pursuit of Apotheosis
                    It will cost you some part of your Path. & Ritual leaves "black streaks".
                    If I understand correctly, your new age cultists should die by drinking poison. And only then, you should have a vision of godhood (or something like that).

                    I think the solution is obvious. If this (New Age) is an occult-religious movement, then the ritual can simply be prohibited from being used as something routine. (It's like True Faith. You can bless people for a great cause, but doing it every day can become a routine that will have no effect)
                    You are trying to receive enlightenment, path to this goal is not easy.

                    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                    It really depends. A savvy vampire with dominate or presence could pull an easy following third world country
                    If I am not mistaken, these slaves should practice New Age. Sitting with you in ritual circles, meditating, and so on.
                    The main purpose of this ritual is the momentary glimpse of godhood. So, this is a good start for various plots, gathering right number of people for ritual, looking for signs, etc.
                    Last edited by Alphari; 10-03-2020, 09:24 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                      Of the other blood Sorcerers I would think three Setite Bloodlines, Cappy’s Brood, and the Sorcerer Caste of Bani Haquim have had varying degrees of interest in this, such as with Alamut maybe having otherworldly layers and maybe being originally the Fortress of Djinn or even Angels, and Keymalki. Also Baba Yaga’s Chicken Hut I believe was much larger inside then out.
                      Thoughts?
                      Here are my thoughts, such as they are;

                      The Tremere *remember* Horizon Realms and having them, and have been frustrated for centuries by the utter failure to replicate them using blood Thaumaturgy. One of the original dozens of Mages who became Tremere once claimed she was *so close* to cracking the secret, but she vanished, and that was centuries ago, and now it's officially frowned upon as a waste of time to continue down that path (and would be horribly insulting to all the clan elders who failed if a younger succeeded, so, really, don't even try). It's something of a sore point with the eldest, and considered a pipe dream / fantasy / faerie tale by the youngest generations, who have more than enough real pressing issues to deal with than to angst about something that a few of their boring elders remember from their living years, all those centuries ago.

                      The Assamites are rumored to have a fantastic otherworldly 'Garden' where an assassin can rest and take respite between missions, or as a reward for a particularly successful run, but it's not an actual other 'garden' dimension filled with djinn and virgins and trees that grow dates filled with tasty blood and other frippy nonsense. It's a real garden, with real ghouls and lots of drugs and sex and illusion-magic and whatnot. They spread the rumor that it's a taste of heaven and that the warriors are transported to a realm of djinn and whatever, but, the 'fragrant clouds' are hashish and the 'virgins' are... not.

                      Chimerstry can create a shared dream, but it's not really a pocket dimension, no matter how real it feels to the 'dreamers.' And it's quite temporary.

                      Giovanni have just enough common sense to not attempt to build anything in the world of the dead. They like to keep their feet firmly planted in the world of the living, and drag spirits here, where they hold all the power, and not have their souls be naked and at the mercy of the spirits they so cruelly mistreat... Like any quasi-successful mob organization, they have a keen sense of territory, and that other world belongs to another gang.

                      That's my thoughts. Horizon realms are neat, but, ultimately, are a dead end escape from 'the real world,' and something generally beyond the reach of most vampires (and irrelevant to their goals, to seize power in *this* world).

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                      • #26
                        The idea of there being Horizon Realms (or one realm with multiple access points) being used by Vampires is brilliant to me. Imagine these locations being connected to Earth through gates with the other side leading to some sort of Enclave (a fortress city or a manor estate) secured against something else that lies outside of the enclaves walls. Due to the danger of what lies out there it is best and smart for vampires to travel between the Enclaves via Earth, rather than going between the enclaves in the realm itself. Obviously the realm would be perpetually shrouded in moonlight so that the vampires don't have to worry about the negative effects of the day.

                        Here is the question, what if the Vampires didn't build the realm or its gates but found them and took them over. Even more, what if the land beyond the enclaves are mostly wild, unknown and bizarre. Or maybe what if a gate to an enclave suddenly closed, locking the place down. Or a new gate to a previously unknown enclave was found and explored. What if the original builders, or a remnant of them, came back, or if not so much then what if something of them was found.

                        This doesn't take away from the whole needing Earth thing because even if the enclaves were big enough to house say a large town or small city, its still not big enough to provide all the humans needed to feed a Kindred population. Additionally, the whole need to travel the Earth to move between enclaves means there is definitely a need for the Earth.

                        Considering I see Vampires as social creatures and such this to me works quite well. Plus it sort of adds more twists and turns and intriguing possibilities that I really like.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Alphari View Post
                          [*]There is some story about assamit & baali, Baali have "their" spiritual-mental dimension-prison. (dimension belongs to the powerful Earthbound.) One of the ways to get into this torture-world

                          .
                          Afaik Baali can enter and traverse hell as they please at certain levels of daimonion without being harmed.

                          Also i dont think TREMERE being able to pull it off is out of the possible at elast with their vienna chantry. House of Hemres mages did that way back when already, so they Tremere know how to. They can ghoul some mages as they still get, if few, mage recruits to do it, they can access nodes to do it, they will find a way.
                          Last edited by Orkar; 10-09-2020, 04:36 PM.

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