What happens when a hunter with true faith is embraced?

[DrHappyAngry]

This is V20 we're dealing with here, but would be curious about other editions.

So, this actually happened last game session where the characters were fighting some hunters. One of the players decided to embrace one of the dying hunters that had true faith. I gave him a shot at just dying peacefully by rolling his true faith and he completely botched it.

I'm thinking to start with, for at least the time being, he loses a point of faith for this happening but retains the rest unless he were to do something that might be in conflict with his faith's beliefs. So when the group opens the trunk of the car they stuffed him into, he could still brandish his holy symbol at them and attempt to flee as long he doesn't frenzy from hunger. I'm probably going to go with this but was just curious how others have dealt with this in the past.

[CTPhipps]

They become NYTEBLADE.

"So, Nyteblade fights vampires."

"Yes."

"But the Order still hunts him, because he's a vampire."

"YES!"

[Meldok]

Bringing such a being into the fold is no easy task. Depending on how smart the hunter is, he simply may bides his time and turn on the group. But it easily could go in the opposite direction and he could be the most debauched of them all after a short period. Forsaken by his god an all that. Or he sees it as a test and he has to sacrifice his humanity to safe humanity (which in the long run will and badly for him).

I would decide depending on what the group does in his training. But with the few extras, under no circumstances he would drink human blood (even to a point where he might die or frenzy), he will not kill humans only other monster. Of course he sees himself now as one and is in ennui half the time in the beginning.

Oh, depending on the organization your troupe is in they are in hell themselves. What were they thinking embracing someone with true faith?

[DrHappyAngry]

Oh, I should've mentioned they're a nomadic Sabbat pack undercover in a city the Cam only has a loose grasp on, so random chaos is right up their alley. Another thing I'm pondering is how should true faith interact with the Vaulderie? I haven't quite decided how I want to deal with that, should they manage to force him to drink from the cup.

In my head I'm kind of hoping he gets away, just to create more trouble. He could potentially try to make contact with his church or get picked up by the local Cam. He might blow their cover if the Cam gets their hands on him.

[Meldok]

As a ST would probably lean in the same direction but I would get my players a fighting chance to manipulate and influence said hunter to become a member of the pack. But I would make it hard, like really hard and with dire consequences if they fail. If they fail and don't kill the hunter-vampire banishment from the city will be one of the more harmless option. If he flees his sole mission is to kill those who denied him heaven.

As Sabbat one of the angles the could use, would be the antediluvians. "Yeah, we're bad, but wait what will happen if the 10000 year old blood gods wake up and fight it out."

[Baaldam]

Well, since the reason the Embrace took in the first place was a botched Faith, i would say goes to the deep end, hard.

"It's the Lord's will i be remade as a monster!!!" crazed epiphany, hunter goes full-on Lancea Sanctum (from Requiem) style raving lunatic zealot, imho.

The hunter keeps the True Faith, but it twists in peculiar, beast-fueled ways. Giving it any Noddist lore, further validating a biblical worldview, only serves to makes things worse, possibly leading to recovery of any lost Faith, now taken in strange directions (along with maybe inadvertently learning a path even without appropriate teachers).

[DrHappyAngry]

I'm kind of thinking I might go with a bit of both. It should be hard for them to keep him and he'll try to get away, but it is possible for him to get indoctrinated. Maybe even willpower expenditure can counter the Vaulderie, at least for a little while. If they do manage to indoctrinate him, though, he'll go all in on the Noddist lore and being a monster to fight Gehenna. I strongly suspect they're probably just going to want to interrogate him and destroy him

[Baaldam]

I'm thinking to start with, for at least the time being, he loses a point of faith for this happening but retains the rest unless he were to do something that might be in conflict with his faith's beliefs. So when the group opens the trunk of the car they stuffed him into, he could still brandish his holy symbol at them and attempt to flee as long he doesn't frenzy from hunger. I'm probably going to go with this but was just curious how others have dealt with this in the past.

A little suggestion?
When the hunter awakens inside the trunk of the car they stuffed him into, his Faith is still whole and mostly the same.
When they open it, he still brandishes his holy symbol at them as he always could, making them flinch and retreat.
But also himself. He feels the hurt, the fear, the Beast that is also him recoiling from the symbol as he calls upon the Lord still.
Then, the reality sinks in of what he has become, that point of Faith drops and he stops resisting, for a time at least...

I'm kind of thinking I might go with a bit of both. It should be hard for them to keep him and he'll try to get away, but it is possible for him to get indoctrinated. Maybe even willpower expenditure can counter the Vaulderie, at least for a little while. If they do manage to indoctrinate him, though, he'll go all in on the Noddist lore and being a monster to fight Gehenna. I strongly suspect they're probably just going to want to interrogate him and destroy him

I'd say he'll be confused and divided, seeing his condition as punishment for some subtle failure or an ordeal he must thread through for the sake of rendemption. If interrogated by the pack, he might come to see it as an opportunity for that, willingly giving them what info he has, to trick the servants of darkness into an ambush, even if he must martyr himself for the sake of the Lord's design.

If his old colleagues fail to eliminate the monsters, well, that's where things go pear-shaped and he might go into the darker places of the soul to make sense of his Faith and persisting connection to the Lord, as he sees it.

Either way, i'd say he could be surprisingly open to conversation and learning, both for the sake of intel for initial plans of infiltration/betrayal/martyrdom and later on to try and make sense of his ever (d)evolving undead condition.

[Black Fox]

If I were ST, the hunter would attempt to flee as soon as possible. Reveal as much damaging information he's learned during that time as he could. And then walk out into the sun to be destroyed.

I don't see how anyone with actual True Faith would want to continue existing as a vampire. Non-True Faith hunters could very well let their fear of death overwhelm their hatred of vampires. But I think those with True Faith wouldn't tolerate it.

[Penelope]

This is V20 we're dealing with here, but would be curious about other editions.

So, this actually happened last game session where the characters were fighting some hunters. One of the players decided to embrace one of the dying hunters that had true faith. I gave him a shot at just dying peacefully by rolling his true faith and he completely botched it.

I'm thinking to start with, for at least the time being, he loses a point of faith for this happening but retains the rest unless he were to do something that might be in conflict with his faith's beliefs. So when the group opens the trunk of the car they stuffed him into, he could still brandish his holy symbol at them and attempt to flee as long he doesn't frenzy from hunger. I'm probably going to go with this but was just curious how others have dealt with this in the past.

I like your solution. His unlife would be dedicated to regaining his True Faith and then igniting that Faith in others.

[Pleiades]

don't know if it's a good example but he's the only one I can think of https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Christof_Romuald

[DrHappyAngry]

I like the idea of him feeding misinformation to the pack. I think it should at least be a possibility he sees it as a test of his faith, depending on how things play out. He should try to get away if at all possible as his first step. There's the possibility of only feeding off animal blood or the occasional murderer, so he doesn't have to commit suicide if he believes this is all just god testing him. There definitely would be a period of confusion before he arrives at that conclusion.

Wasn't Christof's faith already in decline at the start of Redemption? You could put points into it, but you had to go out of your way to do it.

[Meldok]

If I were ST, the hunter would attempt to flee as soon as possible. Reveal as much damaging information he's learned during that time as he could. And then walk out into the sun to be destroyed.

I don't see how anyone with actual True Faith would want to continue existing as a vampire.

I disagree, given that Abrahamic religions treat suicide largely as sin and a sure way to hell, I think especially people with True Faith would refrain from it.

He was put there either by God to become a monster to fight the monster. Or by the devil to tempt him.

But as long as he has his True Faith, he will not completely succumb to darkness and the beast. Sure things will get harder over time, but as long as he can retain it, he will fight the good fight. What ever that means.

[Black Fox]

I disagree, given that Abrahamic religions treat suicide largely as sin and a sure way to hell, I think especially people with True Faith would refrain from it.

I completely disagree with this entire logic. Vampires are monsters. They're abominations in the eyes of God. Destroying them is not the same moral act as killing people. Therefore, a vampire destroying itself is not the same thing as a mortal committing suicide. Destroying vampires is always a moral good. I can't think that any religious teachings would ever accept the idea that being a vampire wouldn't be an absolute metaphysical evil that must be destroyed in all cases.

Suicide is a sin because it's considered to be a rejection of God's gift of life and the full time that is allotted to them. Obviously that does not apply to a vampire who has already been murdered by the person who turned them. A vampire's mere existence is an inherent evil. A vampire that destroys itself isn't committing a sin against God. It's undoing the terrible desecration against life that the state of undead is and returning the person's soul to the bosom of God. It is an affirmation of the value of life against the blasphemous nature of the undead and restoration of God's order on earth.

I believe someone with True Faith would instinctively know this and accept what must be done. Higher levels of True Faith would most assuredly cause the vampire to destroy itself. Although I could see very low levels be subject to possible temptation or fear and ignore the calling. But that should be the exception of what would happen. And as a result, the character is likely in danger of losing the True Faith merit over time. And I don't think it would take long for that to happen.

I do think people without True Faith - who detest vampires and while they are alive would think they are better off destroyed if they are ever turned by them - could easily fall into the trap you're laying out for them, especially with the Beast doing whatever it can to survive. Without the blessing of True Faith, it would take a lot of Willpower to do what's needed.

I understand there are many players who interpret True Faith differently, and there are vampire characters with the True Faith merit. (As well as the idea that destroying vampires is always a moral good.) I've never liked that and have always rejected it in my games. I think it's doing a disservice to the True Faith concept to do otherwise. I also believe any game of Gothic Horror needs some level of moral absolutes.

[DrHappyAngry]

I think either is a view someone in that situation could take. They might consider destroying themself and ridding the world of a monster something that would be good or they could see it as anathema to their religion and it being a test from god like Job. It's subjective and up to individual interpretation.