The Voermans: They're Malkavian, but how known is That?

[omenseer]

Define Rare? a city needs to be large enough for it to maintain a certain kindred population for someone's claim of Prince to be not a joke. Of those the rest are not equally divided up among the clans that can have princes. Malkavian princes are less common than say Ventrue princes...but say more common than Salubri healers in general.

I always figured it was Ventrue and Toreador with the occasional Nosferatu and then a Malkavian.

[Lian]

I always figured it was Ventrue and Toreador with the occasional Nosferatu and then a Malkavian.

Plenty of Tremere, Malkavians and Brujah(pre v5 anyway) princes in the books.. Gangrel being the rareity

[CTPhipps]

I always felt Tremere being the rarest was kind of dumb.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Top two are clearly Toreador/Ventrue (The Ventrue have by far the best prince-per capita ratio, but the Toreador are just everywhere)
Then Brujah or malkavian
Then... , then Nosferatu (gangrel'd be about the same)
Then Tremere
And then Lasombra antitribu but only cause they're so rare.


The Tremere would only take the mantle of Prince if the town was really small or they really, really desperately needed to lay down the law. The Tremere are not a clan of leaders, they're a clan of followers. Becoming a prince would take a lot of time away from your studies and force you to spend far too much time out of the chantry (and we all know the Pyramid is more important than the city), or potentially you can foster a Tremere VS everyone else kind of feeling
The Tremere instead should just control everybody with a ridiculous amount of debt.

[CTPhipps]

Top two are clearly Toreador/Ventrue (The Ventrue have by far the best prince-per capita ratio, but the Toreador are just everywhere)
Then Brujah or malkavian
Then... , then Nosferatu (gangrel'd be about the same)
Then Tremere
And then Lasombra antitribu but only cause they're so rare.


The Tremere would only take the mantle of Prince if the town was really small or they really, really desperately needed to lay down the law. The Tremere are not a clan of leaders, they're a clan of followers. Becoming a prince would take a lot of time away from your studies and force you to spend far too much time out of the chantry (and we all know the Pyramid is more important than the city), or potentially you can foster a Tremere VS everyone else kind of feeling
The Tremere instead should just control everybody with a ridiculous amount of debt.

Any city that isn't secretly ruled by the Tremere has an incompetent regent.

[Spencer from The Hills]

I suspect that one of the problems with being a Tremere prince is that too many of their subjects don't think they're being ruled by a Tremere, but rather the Tremere, i.e. the pyramid.

[CTPhipps]

Fun fact: I really liked that Arthur Caldwell, the dorky gamer in LET THE STREETS RUN RED, has the Derangement of being obsessively devoted to revenge on people who have slighted or bullied him in the past.

It is going to make him not especially stand out among Anarchs (Brujah especially) but is perfectly appropriate as a vampire's particular mental infirmity.

I admit to being biased, though.

[Baaldam]

I always felt Tremere being the rarest was kind of dumb.

Something of a "Tremere are more into being power behind the throne" meme kind of thing perhaps? Incompetent regents become "Iznogoud primogen", halfway competent regents become princes, really competent regents, the princemakers. Or something like that, i guess.

Well I think she's publicly known as a Malkavian because Jeanette obviously is and Theresa claims to be Jeanette's sire.

But being a ice cold businesswoman with no elements of "wacky" isn't actually that uncommon among Malkavians.

Quite a few Malkavians have very subdued derangements like paranoia, PTSD, delusions of grandeur, or manic/depression which doesn't actually make them THAT different from other vampires who have these in spades.

Too true. The Malkavian prince in my 1st chronicle, back in '92-'93, was pretty much a slightly reskinned Modius trying to play double agent between two ancients in hopes of getting them to destroy each other and "recover" control of "his" city (and self-respect) from them. More than once a not very well-informed neonate or ancilla has made mistaken assumptions on who is Malkavian, Toreador, Tremere, Ventrue or others in my games.

(Amon other things because it's deliciously easy to have a high-dominate mostly unknown elder change its identity into the "childe" of some another elder, ancilla or neonate - and then have childer of its own that have no idea of the actual truth)

Look at Bronwyn, Bryan, and Corbin for example.

Oh, i really liked those three, though i felt Chicago 2nd edition could have made a little more effort in showing how to fit them into the passion and power games already going on in the city. But i had lots of fun with them in my "Chicago 1.5" chronicle anyway.

As it says in the title. In bloodlines it was a secret and in LA by Night it is known, but at least the Barons that Therese is a Malkavian, but outside that circle how known is this fact? Does the average lick on the street know this? Is it known, but considered a rumor or is that fact just kept to the Barons?

Unrelated aside, but wasn't there some easter egg on BJD's Milwaukee chapter about Jacob, the ancient behind a lot of the mayhem in the city - and Das Buch von Grabkrieg - mentioning a childe in LA? Think i remember something along those lines...

[Lacheur]

I agree with Spencer. You don't want your Prince to either be controlled by external forces (especially if you're an elder or primogen member) and you most certainly don't want your Prince to be able to call in the big guns. Yes, yes, Archons and Justicars etc. but for most places I imagine that the Prince is the Camarilla and that your horizons never extend beyond the suburbs. It's possible a Prince might call in a favour and get an Archon turning up to tip the scales but it's more likely an Archon turning up is going to mess things up for the Prince, even if the Prince dropped hints he'd appreciate the visit. But someone turns up from Vienna? We'll even if they mess up the Tremere Prince, they aren't going to leave the Tremere in a weaker position.

Edit: So you make as hell sure that the Prince isn't a Tremere. In general, unless your the Prince themself, you don't want a strong Prince. Ok, it's nice to know that your domain or hunting ground is going to be respected because the law in town is strong but do you want someone strong enough to take that away from you?

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Unrelated aside, but wasn't there some easter egg on BJD's Milwaukee chapter about Jacob, the ancient behind a lot of the mayhem in the city - and Das Buch von Grabkrieg - mentioning a childe in LA? Think i remember something along those lines...

The Malk with the same Derangement? Yeah, while he doesn't say her by name, he describes her in such a way that there is no doubt who he's talking about. He also claims that his hated rival and arch-foe (aka his other personality) Sired her sister in their endless game of trying to one up the other.

[Baaldam]

The Malk with the same Derangement? Yeah, while he doesn't say her by name, he describes her in such a way that there is no doubt who he's talking about. He also claims that his hated rival and arch-foe (aka his other personality) Sired her sister in their endless game of trying to one up the other.

Yeah, thought it could be relevant to anyone looking for ways to toy with the Voermans.

And now i'm asking myself, if Esau/Jacob actually embracing her/them is true, if the old monster might have any relation with the Malk version of the Fledgling (or more precisely, it's destroyed sire), Bela or that 10th gen noddist from Diablerie: Mexico. Hmmmm....

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Yeah, thought it could be relevant to anyone looking for ways to toy with the Voermans.

Not really because it doesn't seem like anyone is really aware of it. Just because you know she's a Malk doesn't mean you know who her Sire is. Plus, LA is a far way from Milwaukee. And that's of course assuming that anyone else in Milwaukee is even aware that he Embraced someone, much less aware that it was Therese/Jeanette.

[Baaldam]

Not really because it doesn't seem like anyone is really aware of it. Just because you know she's a Malk doesn't mean you know who her Sire is. Plus, LA is a far way from Milwaukee. And that's of course assuming that anyone else in Milwaukee is even aware that he Embraced someone, much less aware that it was Therese/Jeanette.

It means the crazy old Cucko knows her and might have some vested interest in her actions - and we are talking of a methuselah with Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate & Presence 5+. Not to mention maybe (because i'll be the first to admit he's unreliable as all hell) writer of Das Buch von Grabkrieg - sincerely, being a few states away is utterly immaterial if that old monster decides to play.

[AkatsukiLeader13]

It means the crazy old Cucko knows her and might have some vested interest in her actions - and we are talking of a methuselah with Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate & Presence 5+. Not to mention maybe (because i'll be the first to admit he's unreliable as all hell) writer of Das Buch von Grabkrieg - sincerely, being a few states away is utterly immaterial if that old monster decides to play.

Sure, he knows her but would the Milwaukee Kindred who know him know who Therese/Jeanette are? Let's face it, she may be Baron of Santa Monica but she wasn't exactly a famous figure until V5 and the success of the Asylum club franchise. If we're talking about a game set before that, no one would really know who Therese/Jeanette are in Milwaukee and by the same token, the people in LA won't know who Jacob/Esau are. So who in either city would know?

In V5... well Jacob/Esau is MIA, likely Beckoned. So yeah, he's not telling anyone that his Childe is the one behind the Asylum.

[Baaldam]

Sure, he knows her but would the Milwaukee Kindred who know him know who Therese/Jeanette are? Let's face it, she may be Baron of Santa Monica but she wasn't exactly a famous figure until V5 and the success of the Asylum club franchise. If we're talking about a game set before that, no one would really know who Therese/Jeanette are in Milwaukee and by the same token, the people in LA won't know who Jacob/Esau are. So who in either city would know?

Honestly, i'm not really worried about other (canon) kindred knowing their relation as much as Jacob/Esau himself being aware of her and having a personal stake on her, as he's the kind of individual that would have a lot of pull to both keep tabs on Voerman and easily mess/monkeywrench with anyone interacting with her, distance being almost immaterial as a hurdle to his capabilies. That in itself is Christopher-level bad news to LA or wherever the two-faced lady decides to stay, because if Milwaukee serves as indicator, he's a demented troll prone to fanning out the flames of conflict wherever he gets invested into.

In V5... well Jacob/Esau is MIA, likely Beckoned. So yeah, he's not telling anyone that his Childe is the one behind the Asylum.

Oh yeah, the Beckoning, good point. I keep forgetting about that because Chicago is pretty much the only V5 book i have at present. That said it's influence seems to be kind of scattershot, no? Menele is gone but Helena, Vitel and Mithras-Coven are still around last i heard.