Kupala's sacred fire-flower and Vaulderie

[trueann]

Well, Velya and Lugoj found the Sacred Fire-Flower on a forgotten and desecrated mountain monastery and executed a ritual on Kupala's Eve, using Lambach's potent blood as a catalyst to breake the blood bonds.

So, as I ubderstood, it was the first Vaulderie ever. The question is: was the was the use of the flower necessary, and if it was, why do the subsequent Vaulderie worked without it?

[Black Fox]

I'm not aware of any canonical answer, but this is why in my own chronicles.

Yes, the use of the Sacred Fire-Flower was necessary. The blood bond is not normally broken so easily and some kind of "magic" is needed. What exactly the fire-flower was, is up to debate. But it was definitely needed.

The subsequent vaulderie works "without" a new fire-flower because the essence of the original fire-flower still resides in the vitae of all prior vaulderie participants. Vaulderies are not created independently from each other. Every vaulderie can be linked back to that first vaulderie because of its participants. The people who participated in the first vaulderie had some kind of metaphysical change in their blood as a result of the fireflower. When those participants contacted new vampires, and joined their blood in a brand new vaulderie, the "presence" of the fire-flower was still in the blood of the first vaulderie's participant, who then shared it with the others. Then all of those new participants were changed and could do the same to new vampires by performing a vaulderie with them. Think of it like a contagion spreading from vampire to vampire.

If a group of vampires who have never experienced the vaulderie attempted to replicate the ritual, it would fail because none of them have vitae previously exposed to the fire flower through prior vaulderie. This is why neo-Anarchs in the Camarilla never found a way to break blood bonds.

[trueann]

I'm not aware of any canonical answer, but this is why in my own chronicles.

Yes, the use of the Sacred Fire-Flower was necessary. The blood bond is not normally broken so easily and some kind of "magic" is needed. What exactly the fire-flower was, is up to debate. But it was definitely needed.

The subsequent vaulderie works "without" a new fire-flower because the essence of the original fire-flower still resides in the vitae of all prior vaulderie participants. Vaulderies are not created independently from each other. Every vaulderie can be linked back to that first vaulderie because of its participants. The people who participated in the first vaulderie had some kind of metaphysical change in their blood as a result of the fireflower. When those participants contacted new vampires, and joined their blood in a brand new vaulderie , the "presence" of the fire-flower was still in the blood of the first vaulderie's participant, who then shared it with the others. Then all of those new participants were changed and could do the same to new vampires by performing a vaulderie with them. Think of it like a contagion spreading from vampire to vampire.

If a group of vampires who have never experienced the vaulderie attempted to replicate the ritual, it would fail because none of them have vitae previously exposed to the fire flower through prior vaulderie. This is why neo-Anarchs in the Camarilla never found a way to break blood bonds.

Interesting, thank you for answering. But, if I remember correctly, in one of an anarch books was a statement, that groups of modern anarchs can use a vaulderie for breaking blood bonds. It is doubtful that some hardcore old anarch participated in their rituals.

[CTPhipps]

I admit I would keep the Kupala's Flower requirements for the ritual but state the Sabbat have hot boxes of this and greenhouses wherever they take over a city.

[False Epiphany]

The insinuation (or was it outright stated?) in Clanbook Tzimisce Revised is that the "fire-flower" contained the vitae of the Tzimisce Antediluvian. I don't remember if this was part of some plot to turn the Sabbat into its tools/incubators for its essence, which seems a little redundant with Vicissitude also doing the same thing.

I can just as easily see the fire-flower, true to its name, being something cooked up by Kupala. He hates the Tzimisce and stood to gain by turning the younger generations against their elders.

One interesting point is that Lambach's potent blood was needed as a catalyst for the ritual. I always took that to mean the vaulderie could only affect someone of the same generation or higher as the original ritual participants: thus, if Lugoj and Velya had performed the ritual on an 12th generation schmuck, the vaulderie would only work on a limited subset of vampires. The Tzimisce Anarchs wanted to shatter as many blood bonds as possible, so they used the lowest-generation vampire they could get their hands on.

This still begs why they needed Lambach, since Velya was 5th gen. He might have just been hiding that fact, or he and Lugoj might not have been sure how the ritual would turn out, or whether there would be undesirable side effects. Lambach might have just been a glorified guinea pig.

Since Velya's original ritual incorporated Lambach's potent blood, the vaulderie can affect any vampire of the 5th generation or higher. Ones of the 4th generation or lower should be immune to it. There aren't really any Sabbat 4th gens, as sect is an afterthought to methuselahs. Marozia d'Oscura, one the Sabbat's previous (semi-canon) regents is an exception, as she diablerized her way down to 4th gen before being assassinated. That might have been because the vaulderie ceased to affect her and she became far more selfishly-minded, with no enforced loyalty to any of her sectmates. I've always figured most senior Sabbat have performed vaulderies with countless sectmates outside of their packs over the years. A regent without any of those ties would have been a dangerous wild card.

This also might have been how Mithras' diablerie shattered Monty Coven's vaulderie to his packmates. He was also low enough generation to be immune.

I like the idea that the original, now-legendary fire flower is impossible to replicate, and that all vaulderies can be traced back to that first one between Lambach, Velya, and Lugoj.

[trueann]

"This still begs why they needed Lambach, since Velya was 5th gen."
There are possibility that Lambach is actually 4th gen.

"I like the idea that the original, now-legendary fire flower is impossible to replicate, and that all vaulderies can be traced back to that first one between Lambach, Velya, and Lugoj."
So, young anarchs can't broke blood bonds without someone old and with Kupala's Flower in blood?

[CTPhipps]

Note: Much of this is not canon but is just flavor text that I think would work with a game if you want to use it.

Here's some notes about Kupala for my on-going Trannsylvania Chronicles game:

1. In my games for maximum Disney's "Fantasia" homage, Kupala's Sacred Flower comes from growing directly on the side of the mountain Kupala was imprisoned under. The Tzimisce had to cultivate it there and while they can grow it elsewhere, all Kupala flowers are descended from the original breed and are necessary for the Vaulderie. You cannot do the ritual without the flower anymore than you can do any other magic without the material ingredients. However, the Sabbat had plenty of places where they grew it and the Anarchs have a few "pot farms" of it too. It also grows on the demonically tainted mountain in Montreal.

2. Kupala is an Earthbound Defiler of Luciferian bent. While as insane as any other Earthbound, she doesn't want to destroy the universe but rebuild it as a paradise with her as the new God.

3. I also make Kupala female because the goddess she's based on is female.

4. Like all Demon: The Fallen demons, Kupala desires Faith above all other things. Normally, you can't get Faith from vampires. However, you can get it from blood because vampire blood=quientessence and sacrifice. Every vaulderie requires about 4-5 vampires to "work" and they each donate a blood point. One of these points of blood is sacrificed as part of the ritual and goes directly to Kupala. One point may not mean much but done nightly by every Sabbat pack for 500+ years? Kupala has been raking in the faith.

5. Kupala is the infection in Vicissitude rather than "just" the Eldest. The Eldest made a compact with the shapeshifting Kupala to dramatically expand their ability to shapeshift and merge with the land as well as Earth plus affect other beings. So, Vicissitude is "tainted" Protean. It is Kupala who can affect other people through their possession of it.

6. Koldunic Sorcery "works" because Kupala and the Tzimisce made a compact and she tainted all of Transylvania's nature spirits [Why the Garou consider her a Bane Incarnae--which is not accurate but not WRONG either]. Most of the world is mildly tainted with the Wyrm now anyway so Tzimisce sorcery still works elsewhere.

7. I actually had Kupala bound not by the Lupines but by the Eldest because while Kupala thought they were playing the Tzimisce Antediluvian as a sucker, Kupala was facing a being who had the magical oomph to put them down.

8. A pact with Kupala is how Tremere/Goratrix learned the resting place of multiple Antediluvians. Kupala was hoping Tremere would be easier to take over than Tzimisce. This is true and Kupala gained a physical body in 2004 via Tremere's. They are the White Worm. They are now an Antediluvian.

[False Epiphany]

"I like the idea that the original, now-legendary fire flower is impossible to replicate, and that all vaulderies can be traced back to that first one between Lambach, Velya, and Lugoj."
So, young anarchs can't broke blood bonds without someone old and with Kupala's Flower in blood?

No, it's simply impossible to recreate the vaulderie independently. You can only perform one with someone who's already performed one. All vaulderies thus "descend" from that long-ago one between Velya, Lugoj, and Lambach.