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  • More questions for crossover story

    Hello everyone,

    since im fairly new to the Demon:the Fallen franchise some questions arose when reading their itnro and the book of nod that you might be able to answer =) or speculate ^^

    1) Lilith "awakened" Caine - since when can mages do that? Or is this a Lilith only thing? In special given kainites dont have avatars anymore.

    2) Caine apparently figured out the "base disciplines" all by himself and Lilith refused to give him further knowledge which is why he turned to demons and learned at least how to embrace.
    2,a) Now Caine being Caine and demons all but Lucifer having been locked up in the Abyss at that moment, did Caine and Lucifer meet? Lucifer did / does walk the earth after all. Though it seems mroe likely Caine jsut summoned some demons
    b) Given that not god but the angels actually created the universe and most things in it, isnt it plausible that angels hold all secrets of magic and existance as well? They DID show humans how to awaken and become mages, they DID teach Caine the embrace, they do teach the Baali new powers of the blood (daimonion and dark thaumaturgy) just like they "created" Viscissitude and Koldunic sorcery for the Tzimisce.
    c) if b) is true, wouldnt demons be the ultimate sources of knowledge? (yes not all demons, only very powerfull old ones) Meaning could they teach disciplines not yet known to Kainites?

    3) Lucifer and Caine share many ideals. Both love mankind, both went against gods will out of pure ideas and were cursed for doing something they couldnt know was wrong. Both wander the earth alone as outcasts...is it fair to think that Luciferians are most likely of all to support vampires? Even though vampires have a different way of "protecting" mortals at least they arent direct competution like they would be with faustians and they dont try to wipe mankind out either
    Last edited by Orkar; 10-10-2020, 01:12 AM.

  • #2
    1) Lilith "awakened" Caine - since when can mages do that? Or is this a Lilith only thing? In special given kainites dont have avatars anymore.
    The basic premise of being Awakened is "You can do anything", so why not give powers to the first vampire?

    To answer your second question. Since Lilith would most likely fall under the Verbena banner, she would have better understanding of blood magic, and that's why Disciplines are fueled by blood. Hermetic mage would probably just make Caine, Dr.Strange-like character.

    And to answer the last one. The fact that Cainites don't have an Avatar, is because Lilith Awakened Caine, it's the Paradox effect, which every vampire has.


    Constantinople was not a mistake.

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    • #3
      In the case of Caine, he wasn't actually dead yet and possibly his Avatar was never twisted like his creations, who are a wholly different breed of creature than Caine himself. He learned to pass on his curse after all. They're effectively the results of a magical rote like the Men in Black or Hit Marks or zombies versus Caine himself, a mage.

      Or the story is all metaphorical.

      What she taught him, though, appears to have been Hedge Magic that took the form of the 13 Disciplines. So, if we were to analyze vampirism scientifically, vampires are all Blood Mages.

      It's just Thaumaturgy is the most magic-like of them all.

      To answer your second question. Since Lilith would most likely fall under the Verbena banner, she would have better understanding of blood magic, and that's why Disciplines are fueled by blood. Hermetic mage would probably just make Caine, Dr.Strange-like character.
      One thing to note is that the Traditions didn't exist prior to the Dark Ages as we know them and, furthermore, True Magic wasn't divided into Nine Spheres. Magic was a lot more flexible and the divide between True and Hedge magic wasn't 100% real yet.

      Basically, the Traditions did a Scientific Revolution that made magic what it is today.
      Last edited by CTPhipps; 10-10-2020, 09:46 AM.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
        In the case of Caine, he wasn't actually dead yet .
        isnt that kinda true for all vampires? They are drained till the BRINK of death not actually being ead cause then they cant drink the blood anymore^^

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        • #5
          They're drained all the way to death. They just have to die with the vampire's blood in their systems. Feeding someone blood when they're close to death but not all the way there just ghouls, like with Heather in Bloodlines (who the PC feeds when she looks like she isn't going to make it).


          Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
            They're drained all the way to death. They just have to die with the vampire's blood in their systems. Feeding someone blood when they're close to death but not all the way there just ghouls, like with Heather in Bloodlines (who the PC feeds when she looks like she isn't going to make it).

            Are they? I look at the Baali embrace - you are drained to a point where you will die if you dont get vampiric blood soon but you are still very alive, alive enough to survive being thrown into a pit, crawl around, open up rotting corpses, take and drink from a blood filled heart. So you are more like mortally wounded than "dead"

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            • #7
              It's also not supposed to be possible to Embrace someone with "old" vitae that isn't fresh from the sire's veins. I figure the Baali use some magical mojo to enable that kind of "delayed Embrace" which also kills the would-be childe. Or they just lace the heart with poison too.


              Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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