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What do you think of the Lasombra joining the Camarilla in V5?

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  • What do you think of the Lasombra joining the Camarilla in V5?

    Or for that matter what about the overall collapse of the Sabbat?


    The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

  • #2
    I think it's mostly a meta reflection of how people want to play as the "villain" clans, and this gives a big lore reason for why Lasombra are playable without being Sabbat.

    In terms of that, I think it's good. I still think Lasombra attracts a certain kind of player, but that's somebody else's problem. I predict that something similar is going to happen to the Tzimisce (ie, some sort of lore justification as to why 'standard' player clans can play Tzimisce).

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    • #3
      It makes perfect sense to me within the context of the metaplot.

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      • #4
        both the lasombra and Camarilla have been reduced to boken versions of themselves

        it's not really the lasombra joining the Camarilla,
        it's a sect fallen from grace being joined by a clan who's just a shadow of its former self

        as for the sabbat,
        during their first interview, the devs said the sabbat would be put aside along with elders (god knows why),
        and that's what they did


        overall, I don't mind it as a small spin-off scenario,
        however, after two years, this is what is being maintained in both the books and the video games

        considering I was hyped for the games, it seems I won't be enjoying them as much as I had hoped


        -

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        • #5
          It's basically nonsense and goes against everything we know about Lasombra's lore.

          As for the Sabbat... It's a bloody crime against players. You like Sabbat? Too bad for you. Sabbat has always been the second biggest group (both lore-wise both published-supplements-wise), and now It Is gone, and Sabbat players are left hanging.
          Last edited by Undead rabbit; 10-11-2020, 11:03 AM.

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          • #6
            Needless to say, I disagree with Undead rabbit

            The Lasombra joining the Camarilla was a move I never expected to happen in my games as the previous editions seemed to establish their control of the Sabbat was all powerful and that the Antitribu were basically just cannon fodder for them. In a very real way, the Lasombra were the Sabbat so them defecting to the Camarilla feels like more a statement of, "Stick a stake in it, the Sabbat are done now" than the Gehenna War ever did.

            On the other hand, I feel like it also reflects a lot of changing realities in the new millennium, changes in the fanbase, and works well with the metaplot. I was initially very skeptical but the argument for the premise persuaded me in Chicago by Night persuaded me both in as well as out of universe.
            My thoughts can be summarized as such:

            1. A lot of Camarilla fans love the Lasombra. It's one of the single most popular clans in V:TM. A lot of these fans are Camarilla potlickers and intrigue courtly types. It doesn't make sense to state they're constantly hunted and on the run with them wanting to be in the high society part of the setting. Cynthia Marie initially wanted Nelli G to be a Lasombra and Eb's actress, well, ALSO wanted to be a Lasombra. The majority of online tabletop groups seem to have one Lasombra or another.

            2. V5's vampires are a lot closer to being Sabbat. The Anarchs are a lot more murderous Lost Boys and Near Dark rednecks than idealists. There's a lot more open Caine worship and weird cults in general. The Camarilla has a lot more weird Gehenna sects. Everyone's just a lot more openly evil. As such, the Sabbat doesn't feel quite as necessary as it did in previous editions.

            3. "The Sacrifice" is a really good scenario: It allows the PCs to play a big role in determining whether the Lasombra join the Camarilla or not.

            4. The Lasombra help shore up the Camarilla: The Camarilla losing the Brujah and Gangrel but gaining the Banu Haqim and Lasombra makes it so the Camarilla is back to full strength. So they don't look like chumps.

            5. Only half the Lasombra defected anyway: Part of what I note is the Lasombra Archbishops, Cardinals, and so on didn't defect. Only the people who had nothing to lose or felt they had a lot to gain defected. The Lasombra clan culture is so scheming and ruthless that the idea they'd stay where they couldn't get power is silly.

            6. There needed to be consequences for Beckett's Jyhad Diary: The Lasombra Antediluvian is revealed to be alive at the climax of that book. This undermined the entire argument of the Lasombra for the Sabbat's existence. If it's still alive, then they've utterly failed to fight the Antediluvians. If you take a shot at the Devil and miss, you need to rethink your life choices, especially if your sect is based around the argument, "I shot the Devil and killed him."

            7. It's already lead to some awesome stories: We've already got Shadows of New York and an extensive LA by Night campaign about the Lasombra defection. I love Julia and her story is all about her winning status for the Lasombra in New York.

            8. Personal Bias: I play in Tampa, Florida (despite living in Kentucky) with my Florida group and the setting for that in my games was it was "the sole Lasombra Antitribu run city in America." Most of my players were Lasombra Antitribu so it certainly was a good idea for my game and added some twists and turns.

            Now, for the Gehenna Crusade?

            Honestly, I feel like this needs to be brought to an end. Theres no reason for to just have the Sabbat walk off the board like that and even if you didn't like them, they were an important part of the game. Having the Sabbat have a really bad decade or two? Another Sabbat Civil War? Lose a lot of territory? Fine. However, the Sabbat just vanishing like the Tremere Antitribu is silly.

            I'm glad the Seven Fires exist and kind of hope that Onyx Path Publishing expands on them into a micro-sect under White Wolf's radar if they're really determined to keep the Sabbat dead and gone. At least give players the option to play something distinctly Sabbat like. Also, Sabbat are useful as antagonists when you don't have a game planned.
            Last edited by CTPhipps; 10-11-2020, 11:33 AM.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #7
              It works on a meta level, or out of game level, because it opens up play possibilities and maintains in-game tension. In game I am also alright with it.

              Edit: Something that is lost sight of in these discussions is that not all the Lasombra have joined the Camarilla. Enough have joined for them to be a viable clan option for players, but many of them are still in whatever remains of the Sabbat or working as independent operators. This means there should be enmity between the Camarilla Lasombra and all the other's not in the Ivory Tower. Of course, the same thing is true of the Banu Haqim.
              Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 10-11-2020, 11:48 AM.

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              • #8
                I like the Idea of more Lasombra in the Camarilla.
                This is not how you do it.

                1- Viniculum. You can't just get up and leave the Sabbat. That's half of what makes them work.
                2- The Sabbat got written off with absurd reasoning. The gut-feeling is to be defensive whenever V5 does anything to do with the Sabbat. If they truly felt they were leading a ship heading for it's doom maybe they should have fucking lead the ship properly.
                3- Better to rule in hell than be a slave in heaven; Why would the Lasombra give up their position of leaders in the Sabbat to take up the 4 point 'probationary sect member' flaw? To be the runts of the litter? To put their lives in the hands of a sect which has long wished them ill?
                4-The Clan curse and oblivion. You'd think this would be a seperate matter, but I think it's indicative of how the writers see lasombra; They don't like lasombra. They want to punish people who like lasombra. Sure, the clan attracts that guy but you're being that guy for taking a favoured toy and smearing it with shit. The new clan weakness is utterly hostile to the archetypal Lasombra: A highly independent professional who "gets shit done" and works behind the scenes falls apart when they need a fucking nursemaid to take their calls for them (not to mention how fucking outrageously modern such a weakness is) and then their three disciplines, including their signature discipline, were utterly neutered. It really seems like someone tired of 'that guy' playing Lasombra so much they made their absolute damnedest that the clan would be regulated to absolute-bitch whipping boy. They suck to play, they're in a politically shit position, and the Ravnos didn't even get it half as hard.


                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                • #9
                  I think Lasobra fit just right with the new, more "elite" Camarilla. If they joined the "all-are-welcome" Cam from before V5, I would have objections.

                  The reasoning behind, which is "Sabbat is going to bleed themselves in the Gehenna Crusade, so we'll just jump ship, cause we were always 'winners' not 'losers' clan" sits well with their "social Darwinism" philosophy. Yes, they were a part of Sabbat, because during the CoT they did not want to surrender to Cam dictating them what to do, but it was over 500 years ago. The situation is different.

                  As probably the majority of players, I'm in the "I want to know the exact Sabbat status quo" club, but I also can understand that they want to give them some time-off, so new Camarilla and the Anarchs can have some fun on their own. And I do believe that both elders and Sabbat will return to take what is theirs. Why would they even bother to hire Justin Achilli back if not for that reason alone.

                  We just have to wait this year or two to see Player's Guide, so other countries' publishers can publish their stuff


                  Constantinople was not a mistake.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    I like the Idea of more Lasombra in the Camarilla.
                    This is not how you do it.
                    Eh, couple of points.

                    1- Viniculum. You can't just get up and leave the Sabbat. That's half of what makes them work.
                    Technically, everytime someone leaves the Sabbat, that means that they're going to bring someone along with them. The Vinculum doesn't instill Sabbat loyalty, it instills fanatical loyalty among the group and if the guy with the most loyalty leaves them he takes everyone with him. Which makes the defection = Civil War make more sense because if a majority of Lasombra are defecting then they have an army to help them do it.

                    2- The Sabbat got written off with absurd reasoning. The gut-feeling is to be defensive whenever V5 does anything to do with the Sabbat. If they truly felt they were leading a ship heading for it's doom maybe they should have fucking lead the ship properly.
                    I'm not a fan of the Gehenna Crusade. It's one of my two main issues along with the handling of Elder Disciplines.

                    3- Better to rule in hell than be a slave in heaven; Why would the Lasombra give up their position of leaders in the Sabbat to take up the 4 point 'probationary sect member' flaw? To be the runts of the litter? To put their lives in the hands of a sect which has long wished them ill?
                    The Lasombra saw the Camarilla was weak and that they could seize control of it from the Ventrue. Given what we've seen, I think the Lasombra are destined to be No. 2# much quicker than the Banu Haqim and the Ventrue are going to have to fight tooth and nail to keep them from No. 1.

                    Or, to paraphrase Milton, "Better to conquer Heaven than rule in Hell."

                    4-The Clan curse and oblivion. You'd think this would be a seperate matter, but I think it's indicative of how the writers see lasombra; They don't like lasombra. They want to punish people who like lasombra. Sure, the clan attracts that guy but you're being that guy for taking a favoured toy and smearing it with shit. The new clan weakness is utterly hostile to the archetypal Lasombra: A highly independent professional who "gets shit done" and works behind the scenes falls apart when they need a fucking nursemaid to take their calls for them (not to mention how fucking outrageously modern such a weakness is) and then their three disciplines, including their signature discipline, were utterly neutered. It really seems like someone tired of 'that guy' playing Lasombra so much they made their absolute damnedest that the clan would be regulated to absolute-bitch whipping boy. They suck to play, they're in a politically shit position, and the Ravnos didn't even get it half as hard.
                    To be fair, the Lasombra have always had the ghoul who dresses them like it's the 19th century. I'm not a fan of the technocracy weakness, though, because every Lasombra needs a jet black or white sports car.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                      e leaves the Sabbat, that means that they're going to bring someone along with them. The Vinculum doesn't instill Sabbat loyalty, it instills fanatical loyalty among the group and if the guy with the most loyalty leaves them he takes everyone with him. Which makes the defection = Civil War make more sense because if a majority of Lasombra are defecting then they have an army to help them do it.
                      So, they'd come over with their entire packs, who usually aren't only-lasombra. Don't you realise how much of a threat that is?



                      The Lasombra saw the Camarilla was weak and that they could seize control of it from the Ventrue. Given what we've seen, I think the Lasombra are destined to be No. 2# much quicker than the Banu Haqim and the Ventrue are going to have to fight tooth and nail to keep them from No. 1.

                      Or, to paraphrase Milton, "Better to conquer Heaven than rule in Hell."
                      I know they often suffer from delusions of granduer, but they clearly cannot compete with the Ventrue on the Ventrue's home turf.

                      To be fair, the Lasombra have always had the ghoul who dresses them like it's the 19th century. I'm not a fan of the technocracy weakness, though, because every Lasombra needs a jet black or white sports car.
                      The obsession with looking right was always the thing of 'a few lasombra' rather than the whole clan, and mirrors kinda working for them not takes away some of it. Needing an intermediary for a phone call is something else. While it can work for some Lasombra, it really doesn't work for others; They had Potence and Obtenebration in addition to Dominate because sometimes, they like to Get Shit Done themselves. Most clan weaknesses encourage vampires to play according to their disciplines, with the Lasombra there's considerable clash between weakness and disciplines.

                      As for the Car, I think most are likely to prefer luxury vehicles, though sports cars aren't unheard of, so are serial killer vans. We can agree on the colouration.
                      Their suit choices will leave much to be desired in the Camarilla. The Tremere might approve, but the Toreador and Ventrue scorn all the black.


                      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                        Edit: Something that is lost sight of in these discussions is that not all the Lasombra have joined the Camarilla. Enough have joined for them to be a viable clan option for players, but many of them are still in whatever remains of the Sabbat or working as independent operators. This means there should be enmity between the Camarilla Lasombra and all the other's not in the Ivory Tower. Of course, the same thing is true of the Banu Haqim.
                        except none of this gets featured anywhere

                        what does it matter that there are still lasombra in the sabbat when the sabbat hardly gets featured or get any mechanics on top of being reduced to dumpster diving thugs in the lore?

                        while you and Phipps get to have fun with your Chicagos, your Al Capones and Bahari and whatnot,
                        all we, fans of dark prophets, Jailors of the demiurge and soul stealing crusaders get is...Samson

                        the last VtM VN featured spectres...spectres from WtO,
                        meanwhile, the sabbat from VtM...nowhere to be seen...probably dumpster diving in the background


                        -

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                          except none of this gets featured anywhere

                          what does it matter that there are still lasombra in the sabbat when the sabbat hardly gets featured or get any mechanics on top of being reduced to dumpster diving thugs in the lore?

                          while you and Phipps get to have fun with your Chicagos, your Al Capones and Bahari and whatnot,
                          all we, fans of dark prophets, Jailors of the demiurge and soul stealing crusaders get is...Samson
                          I confess to never imagining in my wildest dreams that Samson would be making his return and being actually terrifying.

                          the last VtM VN featured spectres...spectres from WtO
                          There's a W:TO and W:TA game coming out too so the old World of Darkness is gradually returning.

                          meanwhile, the sabbat from VtM...nowhere to be seen...probably dumpster diving in the background
                          One of the things I've tried to do as Moderator is reframe the conversation because, again, there's no need to think of this as a conflict between Editions. You can like some elements of the changes and dislike others.

                          I very much agree that the Sabbat should make their return and am genuinely surprised that we haven't gotten anything regarding them other than their tiny bit of information in The Chicago Folio. There's been ex-Sabbat, Sabbat defectors, and other people left and right but most of the material we've seen has only alluded to what's going on with the Sabbat.

                          As much as I love Anarchs and the new changes, I do think they should have included all of the Clans in the main book and given at least a short write-up of the Sabbat. I think fans would appreciate even a smaller, more vicious inhuman Sabbat than just wiping them off the board. I was intrigued by the write-up of Sabbat in CBN and would like to see more.

                          It doesn't help that Lucita may have been Final Deathed because they had her defect from the Antitribu to the "normal" Sabbat.
                          Last edited by CTPhipps; 10-11-2020, 12:55 PM.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            So, they'd come over with their entire packs, who usually aren't only-lasombra. Don't you realise how much of a threat that is?
                            It's definitely interesting to speculate how many Antitribu have come over to the Camarilla without them ever suspecting. The Lasombra have potentially a huge number of allies with plenty of them having experience infiltrating Camarilla cities that can just show up and say, "Hi, my name is Bob. I'm a Brujah an....d I'm happy to be here!" If their Vinculum isn't very strong, they might also be the first to betray them and stake them too because the price for entry is one Sabbat older than yourself.

                            And who is going to question you about ages?

                            I know they often suffer from delusions of granduer, but they clearly cannot compete with the Ventrue on the Ventrue's home turf.
                            I dunno, I think the Lasombra are willing to play the long game. The Lasombra have potential allies in the Banu Haqim and the Tremere are no longer supporting the Ventrue like they used to.

                            Because the Ventrue did jack for them.

                            The obsession with looking right was always the thing of 'a few lasombra' rather than the whole clan, and mirrors kinda working for them not takes away some of it. Needing an intermediary for a phone call is something else. While it can work for some Lasombra, it really doesn't work for others; They had Potence and Obtenebration in addition to Dominate because sometimes, they like to Get Shit Done themselves. Most clan weaknesses encourage vampires to play according to their disciplines, with the Lasombra there's considerable clash between weakness and disciplines.
                            Like I said, I find the technology weakness very unforgiving in the 21st century and doesn't really fit my view of them. I do think the Lasombra having lots of mortal servants makes sense, though, and I never liked the Sabbat's, "We're all vampires and accumulating mortal power is SILLY!"

                            It makes me think the Grimaldi should have joined Pentex years ago or become a Giovanni family.

                            As for the Car, I think most are likely to prefer luxury vehicles, though sports cars aren't unheard of, so are serial killer vans. We can agree on the colouration.
                            Their suit choices will leave much to be desired in the Camarilla. The Tremere might approve, but the Toreador and Ventrue scorn all the black.
                            This is both true.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #15
                              I think this is one of the V5 setting changes that seems less like real history and more like a Professional Wrestling storyline. I expect we'll find out Vince McMahon is the cunning Lasombra elder manipulator who managed all of this. Maybe in five months he'll turn heel again.

                              If you wanted more Lasombra in the Camarilla, a much more elegant solution would simply show the Lasombra AT were much more prevalent in the sect, and that Sabbat claims to have almost wiped them out was hyperbole. And if you wanted the Lasombra AT to be more prominent than the Sabbat Lasombra, you can easily do that with the other changes in V5. Have the Sabbat Lasombra take serious losses in the various failed Crusades and Beckoning so much that the Lasombra AT can say it's them who really represent the clan. Then achieve some kind of spectacular coup against a prominent Sabbat Lasombra that has a major territory be retaken by the Camarilla. As a result, the Lasombra successfully petition the Inner Circle that the Lasombra join the sect and achieve a position on the Inner Circle with its own Justicar (probably with more behind the scenes politics that show the Lasombra AT buildind favors and boons to get it over many centuries). Of course, the Sabbat Lasombra - despite their losses - find this ridiculous and it enrages them. But it'd be up to individual STs to decide which faction "truly" represent the clan and which "deserves" the name of anti-tribu.

                              That would get you the end result of more prominent Lasombra in the Camarilla, yet have it be more in line with the previous lore and not require ridiculous things like mass defections of vampires who have huge amounts of Viniculum with the rest of the Sabbat.

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