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What do you think of the Lasombra joining the Camarilla in V5?

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  • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

    In general answer as away from my books. They don't change anything, you may RP seeking enlightenment, but you are still on humanity and still have human touchstonez, making it clear no one really beliefs to the extent the Paths managed, you haven't replaced humanity with your cult as your only balwark against the beast, you are simply play acting. Mortals should not be embodying some ideal for you, the focus of the cult should remove that utterly. The doctrines, rituals and goals of the Cult should be all you have and all you need to hold back wassail. But agai this goes against the theme of forced interactions.with humans that runs thru the game.
    So, it doesn't matter what they wrote about them, it's just the mechanics.

    Just checking.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      So, it doesn't matter what they wrote about them, it's just the mechanics.

      Just checking.
      The mechanics are what allow stories to be told, without that the story falls flat and lifeless, like flesh flensed from.its skeleton. So yea they could be amazingly interesting, ( which I don't recall the ones I have seen being, by the oby) but without systems to support that story, falls flat and becomes an immersion breaking headscratcher like Methuselah are terrifying...well the ones we have seen stated aren't anywhere near capable of the acta they are credited with, and are just slightly more powerful primogen, maybe a dice or 2 different, not these Blood God's walking the planet, so again that is system not supporting story, which is it's only purpose.

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      • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

        The mechanics are what allow stories to be told, without that the story falls flat and lifeless, like flesh flensed from.its skeleton. So yea they could be amazingly interesting, ( which I don't recall the ones I have seen being, by the oby) but without systems to support that story, falls flat and becomes an immersion breaking headscratcher like Methuselah are terrifying...well the ones we have seen stated aren't anywhere near capable of the acta they are credited with, and are just slightly more powerful primogen, maybe a dice or 2 different, not these Blood God's walking the planet, so again that is system not supporting story, which is it's only purpose.
        I'm actually not disputing your opinion on the subject. What works for you works for you and what doesn't, doesn't. It's just a very different attitude for me because I consider the rules less important than the fluff.

        I use them but they take a secondary priority to the Storytelling, especially regarding Humanity and Paths.

        The best written cult in the world won't change your mind and that's fine because the problem is elsewhere and elemental. So, yeah, I understand. Sorry for wasting your time.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          I'm actually not disputing your opinion on the subject. What works for you works for you and what doesn't, doesn't. It's just a very different attitude for me because I consider the rules less important than the fluff.

          I use them but they take a secondary priority to the Storytelling, especially regarding Humanity and Paths.

          The best written cult in the world won't change your mind and that's fine because the problem is elsewhere and elemental. So, yeah, I understand. Sorry for wasting your time.
          Where as I see them as equal (also recovered Chicago By Night from drive thru just to take a look, and the Lilith cult and cult of Shelim aren't that. Interesting, especially not compare to what the babari used to be) and they are both still stuck to the headscratcher of having to have human morality pets, which for Shelim especially makes zero sense.

          The system is the skeleton and sinew, the story is the meat and muscle, neither functions without the other.

          (Oh asan aside I don't use fluff and crunch after a game design Dev at paizo called people out on it, for making story seem unimportant, that reasoning made sense to me)
          Last edited by Taggie; 10-15-2020, 06:49 PM.

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          • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

            Where as I see them as equal (also recovered Chicago By Night from drive thru just to take a look, and the Lilith cult and cult of Shelim aren't that. Interesting, especially not compare to what the babari used to be) and they are both still stuck to the headscratcher of having to have human morality pets, which for Shelim especially makes zero sense.

            The system is the skeleton and sinew, the story is the meat and muscle, neither functions without the other.
            1. Frankly, I think of the Bahari as the worst cult and Path in the entirety of the game. So I have no opinion on them.

            2. I think of the Rabbi as a fascinating character given his relationship to real life atrocities. He's a guy who is arguing a point of philosophical nihilism and emptiness to deal with the pain of the real world world. I also think he's actually misunderstanding his own religion because I think the Cult of Shalim *IS* a "bwhahahaha, OBLIVION" religion. Except his in-universe points are the kind that "The Conspiracy against the Human Race" and existentialism deal with. He's a fascinating character to talk with if you like philosophy.

            3. Honestly, I disagree. I will out myself here but I frankly just don't bother ever keeping a tight track of the Humanity or Path score of someone. You lose a point automatically when you deliberately choose to go against your beliegs at a dramatic point. You gain a point when you do something suitably dramatic to your Path and Conviction. What is important is that you roleplay to Humanity or your Path to a way that works, not the rolls.

            More like the video game than the books.

            3. Eh, as you see with Talley, some vampires don't have Touchstones. He has no Convictions or Touchstone but he gets by fine for the past 800 years.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • It's a shakeup for the sake of a shakeup, and one doesn't have to squint hard to see the metaplot between the end of Revised Edition and the launch of V5 being massaged to make the shakeup happen.

              As a new status quo, I think it's viable. Placing the Lasombra within the Sabbat made initial sense when the clan concept didn't have much flesh on its bones besides being Armand from Interview with the Vampire with the serial numbers filed off, but writers have had decades to develop them into something with its own identity.

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              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                1. Frankly, I think of the Bahari as the worst cult and Path in the entirety of the game. So I have no opinion on them.

                2. I think of the Rabbi as a fascinating character given his relationship to real life atrocities. He's a guy who is arguing a point of philosophical nihilism and emptiness to deal with the pain of the real world world. I also think he's actually misunderstanding his own religion because I think the Cult of Shalim *IS* a "bwhahahaha, OBLIVION" religion. Except his in-universe points are the kind that "The Conspiracy against the Human Race" and existentialism deal with. He's a fascinating character to talk with if you like philosophy.

                3. Honestly, I disagree. I will out myself here but I frankly just don't bother ever keeping a tight track of the Humanity or Path score of someone. You lose a point automatically when you deliberately choose to go against your beliegs at a dramatic point. You gain a point when you do something suitably dramatic to your Path and Conviction. What is important is that you roleplay to Humanity or your Path to a way that works, not the rolls.

                More like the video game than the books.

                3. Eh, as you see with Talley, some vampires don't have Touchstones. He has no Convictions or Touchstone but he gets by fine for the past 800 years.
                1. Fair enough, I like them as setting flavour, but haven't played one.

                2. Except, again it hasn't touched his core morality, nor how he deals with the beast, this I agree his Path rating would be pretty low, or he would be on an alternate path in the same movement

                3. RAW Talley would have wassailed centuries ago.

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                • Taggie for your 2. (and 3.) let me quote a certain gaming gentlemen from earlier in this Thread:
                  Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
                  If you want Paths of Enlightenment, pick up a Conviction and help set your Chronicle Tenets. It's really that easy.
                  I think it is fascinating how people get hung up on the word "humanity". With the quote and what cult shows us in mind, I read the stat "humanity" as more than just the old rev. Path of Humanity and more like a core concept that is opposed to the beast. Therefore to me the whole "you have humanity ergo you have to be a good person or go wassail" is like saying "you have strengh 4 so you have to look like the Rock".

                  You get Stains by breaking you chronicle Tenets or your Convictions. And this is where the quote comes in. You wanna play full out shovelhead Sabbat "kill em all and let God sort them out"? Set your Tents and Convictions the right way and you´re good to go.
                  Your party wants to go on that humanity hippie trip? Not that big of a problem either since "If the Tenet was violated in the service of a Conviction, reduce the Stains gained by one or more." (Core p.239) Note: it does not say you get at least one, so you can reduce Stains from Tenets to 0 by upholding your Convictions.
                  In order to get something like a Path from the Cults book one would need something like sample Convictions for each cult... which they give you. So cults are not just fluff and 3 more Powers, they actually tell you how to (moraly) play them and get away with it.

                  But then, there are Touchstones. And this can be a pain in the butt, I give you that. If you dont want to give your Vampire a loyal servant whom he does not hate (you dont need to love yout Touchstone), you would need to emulate something like the Loresheet/Bloodline Haringers of Ashur 1. This one lets you take a corpse as your Touchstone. For my games, I made a Loresheet Paths of Enlightenment with a loot of goodies. The first Point is, that you can take non human Touchstones (e.g. a Book, your favourite Sword, etc.). Or you just talk to your ST and ask him to not give you a Touchstone.

                  tl:dr
                  Paths are already possible with the current Humanity System, they may need a little dabbling with Touchstones.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    I'm actually not disputing your opinion on the subject. What works for you works for you and what doesn't, doesn't. It's just a very different attitude for me because I consider the rules less important than the fluff.

                    I use them but they take a secondary priority to the Storytelling, especially regarding Humanity and Paths.

                    The best written cult in the world won't change your mind and that's fine because the problem is elsewhere and elemental. So, yeah, I understand. Sorry for wasting your time.
                    I agree with you about the importance of fluff/story versus mechanics.


                    The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

                    Comment


                    • Some ideas for Sabbat games:

                      Sample Tenets
                      - Never betray your pack
                      - Acting like you're still human
                      - Never fall to Frenzy

                      Choose a Path, pick up to three Convictions based on the Ethics and/or Hierarchy of Sins. For each Conviction, one Packmate counts as a Touchstone (these should be the ones you have highest Vinculum rating for). As Vinculums change, so do your Touchstones. Treat these Packmates as Touchstones in all ways regarding rules for human Touchstones.

                      I don't see any problems in playing Sabbat with the new V5 rules. Heck, you got examples of Auctoritas in Cults under the Church of Caine that return Willpower, so you really don't need Touchstones either. As for the Lasombra leaving... Good riddance. It's time for the Sabbat to cut the dead weight and get busy.

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                      • Cult of the Blood gods.. I've skimmed through some of it.

                        On it's own, it works for describing some cults. it certainly lacks the nuance and understanding of earlier works. Like there's a writeup for the church of set that does the hows but it doesn't do the whys at all. Maybe I'm Biased because some things that have existed for a while and got changed for no reason, and the changes don't seem to be improvements. I mean the Bahari went from an S+M cult to... an S cult?

                        Also I didn't realise influencers were so relevant before i read this text. Their inclusion seems so... bitter.

                        Paths of Enlightenment are simple. Many I have issues with (seriously some of them are suicidal) but I like that they are succinct and evocative. CotBG.... There's a lot of waffle. So many words for such little meaning. But also, CTPhipps you've got to understand that Cults is not offering Paths of Enlightenment. Paths of Enlightenment were a complete moral reorientation that individual Cainites set themselves upon. Cults are social clubs for losers, and it leans more towards one-true-wayism for humanity as a result. Roads>>Paths>>>>>>>Cults. I mean most of the 'cults' I'm familiar with don't even have good convictions. Also do we still need people around to have these convictions?

                        Also, the cult of Shalim seems like another -fuck the Lasombra- move. A Methuselah with -NotRepresentedByTheGame'sMechanics- power can just... turn Lasombra into evil dudes whether they like it or not? I'd welcome an abyssal cult, but this one is not the one. Nights, Power and the inner voice, Chivalry, Cathari, Caine, Textbook humanity... and the rememberance of the road of heaven. The Lasombra were awesome and diverse. CotBG... there's some good stuff there, but much of it is a disservice.

                        Also the Camarilla being Secretly-Religious was great, and then they've gone made it overt and.... I feel the motivations behind this move are suspect.


                        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                        • The Sabbat is not a monolitich religion, is made of several sub cults, and paths may differ a lot when it comes to core ethics and tenents. Religious conflict between pack members was a big thing of Sabbat's games.

                          Just to make an example, let's take the 3 tenets proposed

                          - Never betray your pack
                          No good for Path of the Inner Voice, Metamorphosis and Path of the Night

                          - Acting like you're still human
                          No good for Honorable Accord, Harmony and Redemption path

                          - Never fall to Frenzy
                          No good for Path of Orion ,Night and Redemption


                          That's the point, there is no common ground between Paths, nothing that the "one size fit all" of the tenets could fill.
                          Frenzy is a big problem if you are a Cathari, a Noddist or a Necronomist, but it's not a big deal for the followers of the Path of Night or for the followers of the path of Redemption. Betraying your pack is a big taboo if you are on the Path of Honorable Accord, but it is mandatory for vampires on the Path of the Inner Voice or the Path of the Night. Killing humans without reason is good if you are on the path of the Death and the Soul , but it's a big no no if you are on the Path of Caine

                          In my current Sabbat campaign I have two players on the Path of Harmony, one on the Path of Metamorphosis, one on the Path of Inner Voice and two on Humanity.
                          Can I do this with V5?
                          No, I can't. Otherwise just show me tenets that can work for these Paths/Humanity put together.
                          Last edited by Undead rabbit; 10-16-2020, 11:21 AM.

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                          • Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post

                            1)f you want Paths of Enlightenment, pick up a Conviction and help set your Chronicle Tenets. It's really that easy. If you want a moral paragon of an Abyss Mystic, who doesn't lose Humanity while they play with the stuff of entropy, you're talking about such a character contradiction that that character deserves what's coming to them. 2)Abyss Mysticism is close to infernalism in its unholy nature. Of course it drains your Humanity.


                            1) tried that, it flat out feels nothing like being on a Path, it just doesn't function. Not involved enough, not enough space for conflict between tenets of the Path, no mechanical support for morality checks. and no or minimal shared Tenets between paths to make Chronicle tenets with. 2) Which would matter if I wanted a vampire on the Path of Humanity, I don't, they are dull and uninteresting to me, sorry just don't care about Cam and anarch morality, and woe is me self loathing, vampires are transcendent super predators, that is what interests me.
                            Last edited by Taggie; 10-16-2020, 11:01 AM.

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                            • Originally posted by PJ123 View Post
                              Some ideas for Sabbat games:

                              Sample Tenets
                              - Never betray your pack
                              - Acting like you're still human
                              - Never fall to Frenzy

                              Choose a Path, pick up to three Convictions based on the Ethics and/or Hierarchy of Sins. For each Conviction, one Packmate counts as a Touchstone (these should be the ones you have highest Vinculum rating for). As Vinculums change, so do your Touchstones. Treat these Packmates as Touchstones in all ways regarding rules for human Touchstones.

                              I don't see any problems in playing Sabbat with the new V5 rules. Heck, you got examples of Auctoritas in Cults under the Church of Caine that return Willpower, so you really don't need Touchstones either. As for the Lasombra leaving... Good riddance. It's time for the Sabbat to cut the dead weight and get busy.


                              Power and the Inner Voice laughs hard at the first 2, as do Death and The Soul, Metamorphosis and Night, and nearly all Sabbat paths laugh at the third, have you never heard of Riding the Wave?

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                              • Undead Rabbit, you gave three Paths for each Tenet showing a problem. That's good. Conflict = good story. Convictions help offset Tenet violations. It's not supposed to be easy being a paragon of a Path or Humanity. Otherwise, just have the Tenet Failing to Do Whatever I Want and be done with it.

                                Taggie, originally I was going to write Failing to resist Frenzy or Ride the Wave, but felt the word count was too high. 😊

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