Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How do I explain sleeping methuselah powers in V5?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Elmerg made a good point of clarifying what I meant about the young taking out the old. Only thing I'm adding is I never said Mano y Mano, I said the mechanics now support the possibility of it happening. Oh, and thanks to Blood Potency, the young are going to hit Hunger 5 before said Elder (because Discipline Rouse check re-rolls).

    Shakanaka, what do you define as Elder level power? Because V5 took a previously 9th level Dominate and made it a 4th level Amalgam. It still does the same thing, just theoretically a 13th Generation vampire could develop it (but why, it'd be a waste; not enough descendants).

    Comment


    • #77
      That's exactly why this system is borked. 13th gen should NEVER be able to do a 9 level Dominate, that's the most ludicrous thing ever. Amalgams aren't a replacement for Elder Disciplines whatsover- they were never combinations of two or more disciplines, but sovereign on their own. This does nothing to adequately simulate the past edition, just a lame ghetto version. The mechanics of the previous edition DID support ways for the young taking out the old, but it was realistic. To even take out an Elder or even a METHUSELAH for that matter take decades of planning in advance, it wasn't just something that HAPPENED unless it was a Siege (are these even a thing now with the Sabbat gone?). This is now just pure clownery.

      NuclearSnake made this point aswell, if we went by V5 logic there wouldn't be no Anarch revolt or revolts at all if their childe can get strong like this with no logic at all, because everyone basically has the same tier of power basically. The reason for the mass revolts and researching ways to break the blood-bound was that so the young could band together to even fight against the Elders- and it worked to a degree. Now in a V5 paradigm it doesn't make sense for the young to have teamed up because they could've clobbed their sires eventually. The 5 cap is literally just Neonate-Ancillae tier, they shouldn't be able to use Elder disciplines with this "Amalgam" nonsense at all it they coincidently had two 5 Disciplines in their suite. 6+ represented the might of the Elders and Methuselahs along with their natural proficiencies to hold domain in the first place, but now none of that is here (with the Beckoning and all).


      Jade Kingdom Warrior

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
        That's exactly why this system is borked. 13th gen should NEVER be able to do a 9 level Dominate, that's the most ludicrous thing ever. Amalgams aren't a replacement for Elder Disciplines whatsover- they were never combinations of two or more disciplines, but sovereign on their own. This does nothing to adequately simulate the past edition, just a lame ghetto version. The mechanics of the previous edition DID support ways for the young taking out the old, but it was realistic. To even take out an Elder or even a METHUSELAH for that matter take decades of planning in advance, it wasn't just something that HAPPENED unless it was a Siege (are these even a thing now with the Sabbat gone?). This is now just pure clownery.

        NuclearSnake made this point aswell, if we went by V5 logic there wouldn't be no Anarch revolt or revolts at all if their childe can get strong like this with no logic at all, because everyone basically has the same tier of power basically. The reason for the mass revolts and researching ways to break the blood-bound was that so the young could band together to even fight against the Elders- and it worked to a degree. Now in a V5 paradigm it doesn't make sense for the young to have teamed up because they could've clobbed their sires eventually. The 5 cap is literally just Neonate-Ancillae tier, they shouldn't be able to use Elder disciplines with this "Amalgam" nonsense at all it they coincidently had two 5 Disciplines in their suite. 6+ represented the might of the Elders and Methuselahs along with their natural proficiencies to hold domain in the first place, but now none of that is here (with the Beckoning and all).
        I think this is ignoring the point of Blood Potency.

        Also, what 13th generation vampire is going to have multiple 5 level disciplines?


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by PJ123 View Post
          Elmerg made a good point of clarifying what I meant about the young taking out the old. Only thing I'm adding is I never said Mano y Mano, I said the mechanics now support the possibility of it happening. Oh, and thanks to Blood Potency, the young are going to hit Hunger 5 before said Elder (because Discipline Rouse check re-rolls).

          Shakanaka, what do you define as Elder level power? Because V5 took a previously 9th level Dominate and made it a 4th level Amalgam. It still does the same thing, just theoretically a 13th Generation vampire could develop it (but why, it'd be a waste; not enough descendants).
          Do not replicate on a 1:1 scale.

          V5 version is way weaker. Just saying.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            I think this is ignoring the point of Blood Potency.
            Blood
            Potency
            Is
            Shit.

            The extra dice are not worth the now quantified drawbacks of potency; namely more hunger and a diminished source of food. The sweet spot of 'this is good' is between BP 1 and 4. Diminishing returns is severe. Sure, you might get... a whoping 3 extra dice when you go beyond this level, but is it worth the extra hunger? The lack of blood?

            I am looking at the fucking table, and yeah, getting past 5th level potency is like having a gigantic penis the size of a child (at 10th level you probably have an adult sized wang) sure it may be impressive and even intimidating, but you aren't going to have much, if any, sex with it. It just causes problems.

            I'm sorry for the vulgar analogy, but I just don't fucking see how you can look at the same table I'm looking at and don't realise what an absolute fucking downer high blood pontency is in this game. It is not worth it. There is more curse than blessing. More healing and a few more dice are not worth the massive drawbacks. Imagine having an option to make more money but to do so you have to be fucking starving all the time, everything tastes worse to you, and in general you've got to lower your standard of living and shut yourself away more often? You are winning a dick measuring contest with potency in V5; but nobody wants sex to be worse than childbirth.

            I... just can't articulate the full extent of how fucking undesirable blood potency is. It's terrible. It's just fucking terrible. Maybe people persecute thin bloods because they're jealous of a potential to actually be a happy vampire? Methuselah and Antideluvians are no doubt in Torpor all the time because they're miserable with this shit and wish themselves below their minimum..

            Also, what 13th generation vampire is going to have multiple 5 level disciplines?
            Pretty easy answer there; one that's stayed around long enough and hasn't diablerized?

            Comment


            • #81
              Blood Potency was only brought in because when they rebooted VTM they just clobbered stuff from VTR without thinking of how to properly make it work. The new devs can like stuff from VTR, but I don't think they accounted that the audiences for both lines are decidedly different and the mechanics for the gamelines itself are different as well. There was no reason to add Blood Potency to VTM, it makes no sense.

              I assume they only incorporated it as some way to solve the Generation meta (haven't I mentioned this before? Hm, I forgot) because obviously the common denominator as time go on will be high gens and by fault they aren't viable whatsoever. So they flipped the whole setting and made everything has a fault-line weaker to where its just pretty.. mushy now.


              Jade Kingdom Warrior

              Comment


              • #82
                I feel it's either a call for equality; A 13th gen is just as good as a 3rd and it's a matter of tradeoffs, or you're supposed to think vampires are bad, being more vampire is worse, and the only good ending is one where you become human again; diablerie is an affront to God and a trap option of the adversary; each generation removed from caine is a mercy and offers more chance to find redemption.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  No. he's right. In V5 If a power was Auspex 2, Dominate 4, I'd be using my 4th or 5th dot of dominate to buy it.

                  In V1-20, combo disciplines don't take slots. You can stack as many as you want. Some disciplines do have rules for multiple powers each level too.

                  Well, that explains much (boneheaded as it may sound). Another reason to keep V5 at arm's length and stick to doing my mostly old fart own thing, it seems....

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    If it's not too late to suggest something relating to the original question, the closest I can come up with for a broader explanation for the absence of Methuselah powers is to broaden the V5 experience of Helena, who felt 'lesser' by resisting the Beckoning. If that was meant to be a wider result (or future game mechanic) for Elders and Meth's resisting the Beckoning, then the in-game justification could be in order for a powerful vampire to resist the Beckoning, their ability set gets knocked down to what conforms with V5 rules. Thus the Methuselah's had their fantastic, high level powers, preserving game lore, but due to the Beckoning, they are either out of the picture or reduced to V5 rule-set abilities. Not saying that I think this is a good explanation, but one that would work with what I've seen published so far.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Ozymandias242 View Post
                      If it's not too late to suggest something relating to the original question, the closest I can come up with for a broader explanation for the absence of Methuselah powers is to broaden the V5 experience of Helena, who felt 'lesser' by resisting the Beckoning. If that was meant to be a wider result (or future game mechanic) for Elders and Meth's resisting the Beckoning, then the in-game justification could be in order for a powerful vampire to resist the Beckoning, their ability set gets knocked down to what conforms with V5 rules. Thus the Methuselah's had their fantastic, high level powers, preserving game lore, but due to the Beckoning, they are either out of the picture or reduced to V5 rule-set abilities. Not saying that I think this is a good explanation, but one that would work with what I've seen published so far.
                      I never quite understood why they couldn't have used the passage of the Red Star as the "equalizer", reducing the eldest Kindred to V5 power levels without removing them from the setting altogether. It would have given player characters more of a chance to make their mark with less year-zero-isation of the setting.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                        I am looking at the fucking table, and yeah, getting past 5th level potency is like having a gigantic penis the size of a child (at 10th level you probably have an adult sized wang) sure it may be impressive and even intimidating, but you aren't going to have much, if any, sex with it. It just causes problems.

                        I'm sorry for the vulgar analogy, but I just don't fucking see how you can look at the same table I'm looking at and don't realise what an absolute fucking downer high blood pontency is in this game. It is not worth it. There is more curse than blessing. More healing and a few more dice are not worth the massive drawbacks. Imagine having an option to make more money but to do so you have to be fucking starving all the time, everything tastes worse to you, and in general you've got to lower your standard of living and shut yourself away more often? You are winning a dick measuring contest with potency in V5; but nobody wants sex to be worse than childbirth.

                        I... just can't articulate the full extent of how fucking undesirable blood potency is. It's terrible. It's just fucking terrible. Maybe people persecute thin bloods because they're jealous of a potential to actually be a happy vampire? Methuselah and Antideluvians are no doubt in Torpor all the time because they're miserable with this shit and wish themselves below their minimum..
                        Not arguing with you here, because essentially you're right. And if one would require the the game rules to accurately simulate the workings of the game world, then the system would be even more problematic, because many story events couldn't have happened the way they did, if there were RAW dice rolls involved.
                        But up to a certain point this is a question of personal preference. I really value Ars Magica's system for its logical rules that can also simulate every single thing that ever happened, every spell cast, every ritual conducted and every mage tower built. If 5 different players at different places of the world think of the same magical effect and create a spell out of it, chances are that those 5 players will probably come up with the same spell rules wise after doing some calculations. This is awesome and something that i really value and that makes magic feel 'real' and 'scientific' in Ars Magica. But even V20 never had that. Granted it had more of that than V5, but it's miles away from Ars Magica. And that's ok, because VtM always had a stronger focus on character stuff and horror and metaplot etc.
                        So for me VtM was always a system where I as a ST had to wing some things in sofar as it contributed to the story and overall gaming experience of the group. Coming from that position there are some things I can accept with V5's rules and can appreciate other changes, which shifted the focus on stuff that is narrative fun.

                        Blood Potency is one of these things: When my players started having higher BP the experience shifted dramatically. The subjective difference in competence between BP 1 and BP 4 was larger than expected and the drawbacks concerning the feeding restrictions shifted the attention of the stories we played more often than not. It resulted in a lot of emergent stories. (Stories that weren't planned but resulted from messy criticals, bestial failures or a greater need to plan out hunting more explicitly.) Our experience with V5 hitherto was that it feels more like playing a vampire than most earlier editions. And that's something my players like. And it's something that's supported by the BP system.

                        All those things obviously change nothing about the fact, that the points you criticised are Right. At least concerning the intention/angle of your criticism.


                        "Life's barely long enough to get good at one thing. So be careful what you get good at."

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          It'd be interesting to hear from you after you've dangled some even lower generation vampires before them; see what happens at potency 5+ , if they even want take the opportunity.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            It'd be interesting to hear from you after you've dangled some even lower generation vampires before them; see what happens at potency 5+ , if they even want take the opportunity.
                            Indeed. Our next chronicle will probably be a camarilla chronicle with the characters being somewhere between 50 and 150 years. (Our chronicle at the moment is an anarch/Independent chronicle in Berlin with neonates.) Right now my only experience that I have with BP 5-7 is via the chronicle's antagonists. Maxwell Ldescu for example. But that's of course different than having player characters. I expect the 'elder game' to be quite different from prior editions. With more focus on feeding interaction (because of the BP rules and because of resonance/dyscrasias). That might not be everyones thing.

                            Long story short: It could well be that we will introduce house rules to play a different kind of story when we arrive at BP 5+. But until now it serves our stories right.

                            Edit: But the XP cost for raising BP should be way lower, because it's a double edged sword. That's something deserving of a change for the next printing of V5. Or something to house rule. As it is now, noone in their right might would pay BPx10 XP for that. Probably BPx4 or BPx5 at least.
                            Last edited by Saturno; 11-06-2020, 07:36 AM.


                            "Life's barely long enough to get good at one thing. So be careful what you get good at."

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              If we're talking Methuselah whats wrong with 'beyond 5th dot plot device?' It worked just as well for Vampire at 10 dot (nevermind other systems that had to face similar 'higher being' issues) and you can always borrow inspiration from other material (like the old 'higher than 5 dot' powers.)

                              Other game systems (like Demon for the Earthbound) had options for boosting the power of high level beings even if some of their powers didn't go above 5 dots. In some cases those can be applicable too.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X