What if the Sabbat beat the Camarilla?

[Eldagusto]

Okay I was thinking going off revised what if the Sabbat won their war with the Camarilla? So say the Gangrel left, and the Brujah start contemplating leaving. Al Ashrad brings his Bani Haquim. But the big turning point is say out of the blue Karan disappears and Jalan Aajav becomes much more active for reasons... So several strategic battles are won by the Sabbat and the Sabbat make a point to consolidate their hold in South America and From their they take North America. Petty squabbles from Tremere and the Bani Haquim ramp up. Al-Ashrads faction dies out from the conflicts but also strikes from Ur Shulgi. The Tremere backs to the wall get called out for creating new Gargoyles and they die out in the conflict as House Goreatrix reveals himself to be alive having maybe lowered his generation after a catastrophic ritual that killed most of his House and he assimilates most of the Tremere.



Theo Bell assassinates Hardstadt after finding out about a lot of dirty secrets. The Giovanni reading the winds of the future join the Sabbat and they crush the Cam in Europe, and Australia with most of the Cam who don’t join the Anarchs become Independents.



What do the Sabbat do now that their big rival is over? So they work on trying to bring a world they can rule openly or do they try to hunt the Antes first? War with the remaining independents and give them an Ultimatum? What do you think happens?

[Dwight]

They would probably then get smoked by humanity when they decided it's time to rule over the cattle.

[CTPhipps]

Turn on each other.

[Eldagusto]

See that is what i am wondering, would they even last a year after a decisive victory against the Cammy? Like a decade seems optimistic.

[CTPhipps]

See that is what i am wondering, would they even last a year after a decisive victory against the Cammy? Like a decade seems optimistic.

Oh no.

A cult of blood, diablerie, and worship of the Beast needs an enemy.

[Pleiades]

they still have to fight the Independents, the mages, the werewolves, the Techies the Infernalists, the...you get the point

[Lian]

they still have to fight the Independents, the mages, the werewolves, the Techies the Infernalists, the...you get the point

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iusUq4-f5U

Replace scots with Sabbat.. replace other groups as you will..

[Natsymir]

If we go by the things established in Guide to the Sabbat and Mexico City by Night, and ignore the V5 metaplot, the Sabbat would have some problems if they emerged victorious, as their own members don't really agree what the sect should be about. A new Sabbat civil war would be likely, to resolve this issue, however...

in the very process of fighting and defeating the Camarilla, it seems likely that the ultra-conservative faction of the Sabbat would gain much strenght. Actually, it seems unlikely that the other two factions could ever win the war to begin with, as they lack the interest in focusing on it at the expense of everything else. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that upon the defeat of the Camarilla, the ultra-conservatives would already dominate the consistory of the Sabbat. The next step would therefore naturally be in accordance with their agenda - an all-out war against the antediluvians. Only if the Sabbat emerged victorious from this war would their next step be to defeat humanity and forever rule the world. In the unlikely event that they actually got to that point, one can assume that they would have usurped some of the antediluvian's and the methuselahs powers, so conquering the world would probably be possible - unless we take the extremely powerful werewolves and mages of other WoD product lines in account, of course. It's a bit of a weird thing with WoD, that it's kinda of undecided how much the different games are actually set in the same world. But if we take the World of Darkness concept at face value, and assume that all the games are canon and true at the same time, I can't see how the Sabbat could ever win against the mages.

[Konradleijon]

It wouldn’t be good for the cainiites in long term.

[Taggie]

A more literally back stabbing, and alien version of the Camarilla, like victorious religious movements usually do, the more militant and uncontrollable get sidelined, or martyred by 'enemies of the faith' or go into 'seclusion', as the power brokers that have always been there move more openly into a princely role, the Faith becomes more firmly structured and standardised etc etc. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[Penelope]

See that is what i am wondering, would they even last a year after a decisive victory against the Cammy? Like a decade seems optimistic.

They would self destruct.

Signed off on an even number 😊.

[CTPhipps]

I actually speculated in the Lasombra thread this is actually what happened to the Lasombra in America and why the Gehenna Crusade happened. MyWifeIsScary made me speculate on some things and it'd be interesting if Point A (The Clan Novels) led to Point B (The Gehenna Crusade).

How the Sabbat Fell

Despite losing New York City, the East Coast Crusade of the Sabbat during 1999 was wildly, fantastically, and terrifyingly successful. They managed to seize Washington D.C. and dozens of other major cities that gave them a vast amount of new territory. It was also done with the most basic and bloodthirsty tactics of Mass Embrace/Zerg Rush/Diablerie. This was not a careful Black Hand operation but slaughter, drink, and attack.

Vampires aren't the most numerous population to begin with so this could result in a massive increase in the number of shovelheads, Sabbat on (Low) Humanity, Sabbat who are addicted to diablerie, and ones just incredibly close to their Beast. They aren't guys who have been carefully cultivated and chosen by the Lasombra or Tzimisce but randos that have been blood addicted via the Vinculum as well as indoctrinated via war.

Normally, this wouldn't be a problem except that the Assamite Antitribu chose to leave around this time, the Tremere Antitribu were wiped out by "Goratrix", the loss of the Ravnos Antitribu, and ideaological purges like the Path of Harmony ["No room for the weak"] happened in rapid succession. The Salubri Antitribu joining added a few hundred evangelist fundamentalist, "We believe in the Antediluvians 100% and are going to avenge ours!" to make things worse.
(Seriously, that's 3 Antitribu clans being destroyed, one of the saner Paths, and the addition of guys playing Knights Templar)

So the Lasombra suddenly had a massive number of Low Humanity diablerists on the verge of wightdom kept barely in check with propaganda that the END OF THE WORLD WAS HIGH. The Gehenna Crusade might have been an idea that they had to get rid of these excess lunatics, especially as they were likely to start killing their fellow Sabbat via monomancy and revolt. The Loyalists had revolved before and this time the Black Hand had their own distractions (what with the whole Tal'mah'Re thing) so they'd be useless in putting it down.

Except, unfortunately, the Sabbat shovelheads DID find ancient vampires in the Middle East. They also found no end of willing converts to the Sabbat methodology in American soldiers, Syrian partisans, and other people there. The Beckoning meant there 1000s of Camarilla to kill and become fat on the blood with so the Lasombra lost ALL control over the "New Sabbat." The blood crazed Satanic monsters they'd always been accused of being were now the majority.

The Lasombra could get with the program or become lunch, so they instead took the money and ran.

[Konradleijon]

Yep, not to mention people like the second inquisition, would ramp up there crusade, once the Kindred start getting even more brutal.

[MyWifeIsScary]

The Camarilla's just the Sabbat's enemy because it's virtually everybody. Really, their true ideological opponents should be the Settites and Assamites, who worship their antideluvian.


If the Sabbat won, They'd go through cycles of transitioning towards more 'civilian' life IE be the Camarilla but with less backstabbing because viniculum, before being destroyed by more militant sabbat looking for anything to fight or looking for territory to call their own. They might even in some cases forget about the viniculum in their peace and be destroyed for it/become the Camarilla in all but name.

[CTPhipps]

The Camarilla's just the Sabbat's enemy because it's virtually everybody. Really, their true ideological opponents should be the Settites and Assamites, who worship their antideluvian.

They are ideological enemies of them. Hence the Serpents of Light (the best Clan) and Assamite Antitribu.

It's just weird there was no Giovanni Antitribu because Uncle Auggie was RIGHT THERE.