What if the Sabbat beat the Camarilla?

[Pleiades]

the loss of the Ravnos Antitribu

there was no loss of the Ravnos antitribu, they were saved by their packmates

in the very process of fighting and defeating the Camarilla, it seems likely that the ultra-conservative faction of the Sabbat would gain much strenght. Actually, it seems unlikely that the other two factions could ever win the war to begin with, as they lack the interest in focusing on it at the expense of everything else.

if we go by Mexico by Night (like you suggested), then the UC are not the ideal choice in this situation

the Status Quo faction was the one who focused the sect's efforts on the crusade against the camarilla,
and they were the ones asking the different factions to compromise to keep things peaceful and stable in the sect,

the UC, otoh, while they had some nice reforms in motion (more implication of the sabbat in mortal affairs, at the risk of pissing off the Noddists), also had some policies that threatened to break the sabbat:
- they wanted to have everyone vinculumed,
- they only accepted the Panders to use them as canon fodder, which begs the question of the UC's policy towards the antitribu,
- they planned to give more support to the Sabbat Inquisition, with the risk of driving the Black Hand out of the sect, and the possible declaration of certain groups as infernalists with all the abuses that come with the Inquisition,
- they wanted to go down on Blood Magic, essentially pissing off every sorcerer, koldun and Mystic in the sect on top of weakening the sect against the Tremere, the nahualli and other supernaturals

[CTPhipps]

there was no loss of the Ravnos antitribu, they were saved by their packmates

Some were saved.

But the Ravnos were about 200 out of the entire Clan.

But good point Re: The Ultra Conservatives.

Maybe they were the ones who drove the split from the main sect?

[Pleiades]

But good point Re: The Ultra Conservatives.

Maybe they were the ones who drove the split from the main sect?

what split are you referring to? in what book/edition?

[CTPhipps]

what split are you referring to? in what book/edition?

I view the events of BJD leading directly into the events of V5.

I felt BJD gave one of the best updates to the Sabbat in the entirety of the setting and I wish it had been used as the basis for the Black Hand. You could have had a balkanization under a variety of regents.

[Pleiades]

I view the events of BJD leading directly into the events of V5.

I felt BJD gave one of the best updates to the Sabbat in the entirety of the setting and I wish it had been used as the basis for the Black Hand. You could have had a balkanization under a variety of regents.

the way I understand it, the factions in BJD are not the same, or are not portrayed the same way as the ones in Mexico by Night and Caine's Chosen

I'm not sure, but wasn't the split in BJD caused by Polonia? (Polonia is status quo iirc)

[CTPhipps]

the way I understand it, the factions in BJD are not the same, or are not portrayed the same way as the ones in Mexico by Night and Caine's Chosen

I'm not sure, but wasn't the split in BJD caused by Polonia? (Polonia is status quo iirc)

Polonia is just the head of the Crusader faction and that is barely mentioned, which I found surprising as I hadn't thought the Gehenna Crusade had begun yet.

* Inquisitors and Montreal were behind Lucita
* There were the Loyalists and FreedDDDDOMMM Sabbat
* The Militants and Conservatives

Polonia was a Dark Horse candidate.

[Pleiades]

Polonia is just the head of the Crusader faction and that is barely mentioned, which I found surprising as I hadn't thought the Gehenna Crusade had begun yet.

* Inquisitors and Montreal were behind Lucita
* There were the Loyalists and FreedDDDDOMMM Sabbat
* The Militants and Conservatives

Polonia was a Dark Horse candidate.

yeah, definitely not the same as Mexico by Night

[CTPhipps]

yeah, definitely not the same as Mexico by Night

Yes, it was based on it though. Lots of information from it.

Mexico City by Night remains one of my favorite books.

Glad it got an update.

[Pleiades]

Yes, it was based on it though. Lots of information from it.

Mexico City by Night remains one of my favorite books.

Glad it got an update.

can't share the sentiment,
Mexico by Night had alot of potential for giving the sabbat a breath of fresh air,

the UC promised a a more centralised sabbat, lead by strong leaders, the lasombra ideal with more involvement in mortal affairs,

the Moderates promised an end to the crusades, more space for personal development under the umbrella of powerful Tzimisce,

and the Status Quo was just the old sabbat we knew and loved, with less restraints on the antitribu

a new sabbat for new horrors, new conflicts and new crushed dreams

BJD and V5 didn't really follow up on this, they just went "everything went to shit for the sabbat, now they have to start over from square one",
even the Loyalists didn't get what they wanted

there's also some stuff in MCbN that I feel needed to be more coverage, like the blood cults

[MyWifeIsScary]

Honestly I imagined the UC to be the 'you need to chill out bro' extreme of the Sabbat. Like, the loyalists are the equivelant of communists we-need-to-shut-down so the UC should rightly be the Incel-fascists. "Reasonable" discorse should really be between the moderates, status quo and orthodoxy.

[Pleiades]

Honestly I imagined the UC to be the 'you need to chill out bro' extreme of the Sabbat. Like, the loyalists are the equivelant of communists we-need-to-shut-down so the UC should rightly be the Incel-fascists. "Reasonable" discorse should really be between the moderates, status quo and orthodoxy.

lol, I sure wouldn't call the moderates "reasonable",
they def have some reasonable policies, but their supporters and leaders are also complete degens who want more space to indulge their degeneracy

[Moriaki]

It's too late for the Sabbat.
The only chance of continued 'survival' for vampiric society was keeping humans enslaved and stupid.
The masquerade only prolonged the inevitable and it was only a matter of time before it blew up.
Meanwhile it gave mortal society opportunity to evolve and develop the technological means to beat the kindred.
If vampiric society wanted to keep humans as herds and limited, they should have done so long before.
Once the industrial age broke through, there was no more turning of the tide.

[Konradleijon]

I never Liked the Sabbat, there just a bunch of Edgelord bullshit.

[KarlB]

Unfortunately, because of how the Sabbat is, they likely won't survive long if they were in charge because of a combination of hubris and infighting. The Camarilla is all about secrecy and self preservation when it comes to dealing with humanity. Sabbat believe they are the masters of humanity and will be too prideful to have the necessary restraint needed to survive the Second Inquisition. So more cities controlled by the Sabbat will simply mean more cities with mysterious 'terrorist cells' that need to be taken out by special forces.

[Sergeant Brother]

As others have said, the Sabbat aren't inherently that united except by having the Camarilla as their enemy. They likely don't have the organizational structure to resist fracturing if they win. You also have an assortment of different factions and ideologies within the Sabbat, some of which includes some pretty crazy ideas which would cause mayhem if they tries to implement them unopposed. If the Camarilla were truly crushed by the Sabbat, the Sabbat would actually have to recreate something like the Camarilla. The more intelligent and rational Sabbat, including the powerful and influential elders, would have to reign in some of the craziness of the Sect. They would need to increase their power over the mortal world, control; more politicians, get more money, make more ghouls - they would need to do this to fill the vacuum of the Camarilla and to preserve the Masquerade which they would have to do if they're sane. They would also have to enforce the Masquerade on individual packs, they can't just have some random nomadic Sabbat packs running around using their powers in public, because it is their influential elders who would have to scramble to cover it up. We see a new Camarilla emerging here, with those who oppose those activities becoming the new Sabbat. There's no way that all of the Camarilla vampires would be dead in this scenario, many would have been driven into hiding, forced to join the Sabbat, or simply become independent. If the more level headed Sabbat elders start becoming more like the Camarilla, they might be able to get the support of formerly Camarilla vampires.

To the degree that the Sabbat win and still maintain their character as the Sabbat, a lot of problems will arise. There will be more Masquerade breeches and that doesn't only concern vampires, it is also a problem for other supernatural creatures who want to keep the existence of supernatural creatures a secret. For the most part, mages leave vampires alone, but if most vampires were the Sabbat, who callously kill mortals on a whim, who play fast and loose with the Masquerade, who mass embrace mortals in times of need - that might be something that would call for more direct intervention from the Technocracy, even from Tradition mages too. Werewolves might be more inclines to go into cities to fight vampires too if the vampires are now all super Wyrm tainted and are killing humans in droves. Other supernaturals might get involved too.,

Ignoring other gamelines for a moment, the more reckless and murderous vampires behave (which includes the Sabbat unless the more rational elders can reign them in) the more human hunters there will be and the more resources they will be willing to bring to bear against Sabbat vampires. The ultimate example being an end to the Masquerade and a war between humanity and the Sabbat. Of course, other vampires aren't going to like that idea, so back to a new Camarilla forming, it may be the case that independent Clans and bloodlines might have to join together to oppose the Sabbat, in fact they might even start doing that before the Camarilla falls when it looks like the Sabbat is winning.