Originally posted by Dwight
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What if the Sabbat beat the Camarilla?
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Ironically, if the Sabbat were to survive after becoming the dominant force, they'd have to embrace secrecy and structure, exercise restraint, and come up with a set of core rules and principles that all vampires must follow to ensure their survival. Basically, they would become the new Camarilla, lol.
Note that the whole humanity thing is not a Camarilla principle. The Camarilla doesn't give two sh*ts about being humane and are perfectly fine with their members being total monsters ... as long as said monsters are subtle, secretive, and respect authority. If one of their own wishes to kidnap a couple of humans to gleefully torture and mentally fracture, all the power to them. As long it doesn't draw unwanted attention their way from other humans.
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My Camarilla vampires will totally use your lack of humanity to persecute or socially condemn you.
They'll also despise you for having high humanity...
I think if the Sabbat did take over they'd just lay low and prepare for the war. Most of their masquerade breaks are weaponized utility, not something they'd casually do in their own back yard. If you're going to live in packs, you're eventually going to get fed up with any excessive bullshit that could bring the hunts down on ya.
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The best Sabbat Ascension scenario I've ever seen was described in Dark Ages V20 Apocrypha of the Clans, Salubri section. Every single line of it is amazing. Once, I will certainly do a chronicle based on this alternative.
I still think that Salubri always would make an amazing third leg for the Sabbat's chair at its foundation, countering the two Douche clans' predatory politics and overall being the 'adult in the room' for the sect, helping to (repeatedly) root out infernalism and sneaky stabbers like TMR and to convert the ideology of Sabbat regarding mortals from indiscriminate abuse towards efficient parasitism. If only they could pull their stuff together back then in dark ages and join Tzimisce in their war before the Revolt. A man can dream.
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A Sabbat with the Salubri among its founders would have been the enemy the Tremere really deserved.
Or, to put it another way, Salubri with allies. The fact that no one raised a finger to help a clan that would have basically been everyone's second best ally, or to stop a clearly ambitious and deadly school of bloodthirsty newcomers, always made more sense as a deliberately tragic emotional narrative on the real life publisher's part than as a tactical move on the Kindred's part.
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Originally posted by Reasor View PostA Sabbat with the Salubri among its founders would have been the enemy the Tremere really deserved.
Or, to put it another way, Salubri with allies. The fact that no one raised a finger to help a clan that would have basically been everyone's second best ally, or to stop a clearly ambitious and deadly school of bloodthirsty newcomers, always made more sense as a deliberately tragic emotional narrative on the real life publisher's part than as a tactical move on the Kindred's part.
Why would anyone help a Clan that got upstaged so easily for? That doesn't make sense to me.
Jade Kingdom Warrior
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Nobody wanted to help the Salubri because it was in their best interest not to help the Salubri. Few clans cared for the Salubri, nobody trusted the Salubri, and many people owed the Salubri favours, but having one-way debt? If someone comes along with a promise of wiping away your debt, who can also grant impressive favours, and also they'll blacklist you if you get in the way, would you really be backing the Salubri?
The Salubri, even more than the later capadocians, were just destined to be wiped out, like any other Dark-Age Bloodline that also got wiped. It's their own fault; a stupid weakness, a bad discipline spread for neonates, a poor attitude for working with others... Why would anyone bet on these guys over the Tremere, who, pre-v5, had only one weakness: being so overwhelmingly successful that it was pissing everyone else off.
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The Assamites were the closest thing to an ally the Salubri had, and the most they could do was help evacuate as many as they could east.
And all that accomplished was putting Haqim's Children on the Tremere's shitlist. And probably setting the stage for their part in the Anarch Revolt ("Hey you wanna come eat some elders oppressing us?" "Yeah after what kind of assholes they seemed to be last time we were around, we're down").
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Originally posted by Ideon View PostThe Assamites were the closest thing to an ally the Salubri had, and the most they could do was help evacuate as many as they could east.
And all that accomplished was putting Haqim's Children on the Tremere's shitlist. And probably setting the stage for their part in the Anarch Revolt ("Hey you wanna come eat some elders oppressing us?" "Yeah after what kind of assholes they seemed to be last time we were around, we're down").
so...yeah
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Where is there any information of the Tzimisce joining (or hint) the Camarilla at all? The whole point of the deal-breaker of them considering joining was the fact that the Tremere were in it in the first place. Not only that their basic philosophies they abide by don't roll with the Camarilla. Can we please stop putting Clans that make no sense in the Camarilla into to it?
Jade Kingdom Warrior
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Originally posted by Shakanaka View PostWhere is there any information of the Tzimisce joining (or hint) the Camarilla at all?
I'm just getting ready for the worst,
it's been two years since the Lasombra and Assamite, you should be familiar with the V5 paradigm by now
Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View PostWell since the Tremere are all dead I guess the tzmusce can join without any other reservations.
the Tzimisce I know and love wouldn't just "join", they would conquer the Camarilla, clean up the Tremere filth and plaster Toreador skin as wallpaper,
hopefully with the help of some Nosferatu who have been eager to bash in some Ventrue skulls since the Inquisition started
but...that's not how V5 would handle it
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I don't see why one 12th generation Tzimisce in Tokyo in the 21st century should deeply care about a war in medieval Europe. If there's any Tzimisce figure V5 gritting their teeth about being in the same sect as House Tremere, it's the former prince of Tblisi, assuming her title infers membership of the Camarilla and even she could be part of a bloodline that had nothing to do with the Omen War.
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