What if the Sabbat beat the Camarilla?

[Resplendent Fire]

Clans aren't sports teams. I don't think clan is as unimportant as said in the Revised Vampire Player's Guide, but I do think that assigning a single personality and set of goals to an entire clan is downright weird.

[Ideon]

Aren't the Camarilla moving into old Sabbat territory so really the Lasombra are just handing them a lot of Domain?

Like, Giangaleazzo's defection was a thing. The fact that no one thought to try 'the Milan model' for luring tired Lasombra away from the Sabbat on a wider scale is baffling. The Camarilla gets more territory and competent leaders, the Lasombra get to switch teams while retaining authority and power with a minimum of ego-bruising, everyone wins.

[Shakanaka]

Lasombra get to switch teams while retaining authority and power with a minimum of ego-bruising,

Wait, what? You really think that the Lasombra will have ANY authority in the Camarilla AT ALL? Their main rival, the Venture that controls it, will just keep them as pity trophies that signal their victory over the Lasombra. The Sabbat was basically the BABY of the Lasombra and to see it go to tatters like this a MASSIVE prestation hit they will never recover from. Calling V5 Lasombra "comptetent" is also very generous.

[Resplendent Fire]

In Shadows of New York, it's pretty clear Lasombra aren't trusted or given much power, and the demand for one Lasombra's destruction for each Lasombra who joins is definitely punitive. I know in VRev Lasombra Antitribu had joined the Camarilla, but the ex-Sabbat looking to shelter in the Camarilla do not have an easy time. I'm not sure the ones who were already in the Camarilla are having an easy time at this point.

[Muad'Dib]

Does anyone know how it is with joining the Antitribu by non-Sabbat Vampires? Are they considered to be Antitribu upon joining the Sabbat and participating in the Ritae, or are they treated like second-class members? I assume there must be a distinction because for example the Toreador Weakness probably stays the same, but on the other hand, Sabbat can't really afford to treat converts badly.

[Pleiades]

Like, Giangaleazzo's defection was a thing. The fact that no one thought to try 'the Milan model' for luring tired Lasombra away from the Sabbat on a wider scale is baffling. The Camarilla gets more territory and competent leaders, the Lasombra get to switch teams while retaining authority and power with a minimum of ego-bruising, everyone wins.

the sabbat weren't going to fall for that twice,
in Archons and Templars, it explicitly stated how the sabbat had grown more distrustful since the Milan disaster and the Assamite betrayal

what would really baffle me is the sudden change of attitude between Revised and V20/V5,
in Revised, the sabbat had gone to the extreme, trusting no-one and even filtering problem factions off their ranks (tal'mahe'ra, the harmonists etc)

but later editions, they just sort of relaxed their tensions,
imo, it would've made more sense if the lasombra defectors were kicked out,
instead, the defectors just walked out leaving a big mess on the way out,
you'd think the sabbat would have learned the lesson by now but...I guess not

[Resplendent Fire]

I think in V20 that had to do with creating an homage to all previous editions without much reference to the metaplot.

[Pleiades]

I think in V20 that had to do with creating an homage to all previous editions without much reference to the metaplot.

by V20, I meant BJD,
though admittedly, some of the sabbat events in BJD might have been influenced by the V5 devs to link BJD to the V5 metaplot,
but I'm not sure

[MyWifeIsScary]

Does anyone know how it is with joining the Antitribu by non-Sabbat Vampires? Are they considered to be Antitribu upon joining the Sabbat and participating in the Ritae, or are they treated like second-class members? I assume there must be a distinction because for example the Toreador Weakness probably stays the same, but on the other hand, Sabbat can't really afford to treat converts badly.

For most clans, you're the Antitribe just by joining the Sabbat. But not for every clan.
The Nosferatu are mostly nominal sect members either way. they're just playing up their loyalty with titles like antitribu
The Tremere get the mark of the betrayer the moment they taste a vauldrie.
The Ventrue who join the Sabbat have to go through a ritual to be a 'proper' Ventrue anti. Namely replace Presence with Auspex. I'd imagine the Brujah/Tzmisce/Lasombra would see them as threats if they didn't.
The Assamite Antitribu shook off their -weakness to Vitae- Tremere curse, or avoided it, Assamites who joined during the Tremere curse/Before Ur-Shulgi wouldn't automaticaly shake of that curse.

[Muad'Dib]

For most clans, you're the Antitribe just by joining the Sabbat. But not for every clan.
The Nosferatu are mostly nominal sect members either way. they're just playing up their loyalty with titles like antitribu
The Tremere get the mark of the betrayer the moment they taste a vauldrie.
The Ventrue who join the Sabbat have to go through a ritual to be a 'proper' Ventrue anti. Namely replace Presence with Auspex. I'd imagine the Brujah/Tzmisce/Lasombra would see them as threats if they didn't.
The Assamite Antitribu shook off their -weakness to Vitae- Tremere curse, or avoided it, Assamites who joined during the Tremere curse/Before Ur-Shulgi wouldn't automaticaly shake of that curse.

I see.
The Tremere converts probably have to go through some initiation into House Goratrix.
The Malkavians most likely end up having their Dominate swapped for Dementation, if this hasn't happened yet.
I thought that in Revised the Ventrue Antitribu have Presence. But going with that they have Auspex, Is it written anywhere how a ritual that changes Disciplines looks like? The only similar situation I recall is the relatively simple "Smile widely and madly for a moment" way Dementation is spread.

[Eldagusto]

So quick aside, do you think the Lasombra Submarine is still a thing by modern nights or do you think they Sank it by now?

[Resplendent Fire]

Anyone wealthy enough can buy their own luxury submarine these days, but that's in the realm of a couple billion dollars or so.

[Black Fox]

I have to approach the question from a metanarrative/setting perspective as opposed to anything "realistic". In my view, the reason why the Camarilla and Sabbat exist in the setting is to allow two very different conceptions of vampires to be played.

The Camarilla exists to allow more modern style vampires - the kind of vampires that exist hidden among humanity found in Anne Rice, Whitley Streiber's the Hunger, the Lost Boys, and other modern takes. As well as depictions of more humane vampires who struggle through their condition - Louis, Hannibal King, Nick Knight, etc. Although bloodsuckers, these vampires typically appear human, infiltrate through human society unrecognized, and spend a lot of effort keeping their nature a secret. If you want to tell these kinds of stories, you need something like the Camarilla.

The Sabbat exists to portray more traditional vampires - the vampire who shows up and immediately starts turning others into vampires left and right like a plague. A lot of Dracula movies are like this (although he also fits into the above mold as well) as are derivatives in Hammer Horror movies, Count Yorga, Salem's Lot, etc. These are more monstrous vampires who are actively malevolent and blasphemous.

Both types of vampires are interesting, both can be fun to play, but both are very different portrayals.

So if the Sabbat wins, we eliminate the first type and only the second type exist (or at least dominates). That leads to a very different kind of setting and story. If we want to preserve a kind of Masquerade so humanity doesn't know about vampires as a whole, it probably means most vampires are destroyed and there are active hunter organizations who take care of that. Or that the Sabbat is merciless about vampires who "endanger" their fellow Cainites by their foolish actions, and we get an even more draconian Masquerade. Or we could say the Masquerade implodes and the knowledge of vampires gets out into the public which means a vastly different kind of setting. At that point it is either outright war between humanity and vampires, or vampires somehow subjugate humanity and we get something like Kim Newman's Anno Dracula series. Maybe there are other variations I'm not thinking of right now.

So it all depends on what kind of setting you want, and what kind of plots and stories you want to tell as an ST and have your PCs experience. Everything else is just details or contrivances to get you there.

[Black Fox]

Does anyone know how it is with joining the Antitribu by non-Sabbat Vampires? Are they considered to be Antitribu upon joining the Sabbat and participating in the Ritae, or are they treated like second-class members? I assume there must be a distinction because for example the Toreador Weakness probably stays the same, but on the other hand, Sabbat can't really afford to treat converts badly.

I assume there remains the distinction between "False Sabbat" versus "True Sabbat". You're not True Sabbat until the Creation Rite is applied to you, and that only happens when you prove yourself. Sabbat won't perform the Creation Rites on any defectors to their sect until they've done something that proves their loyalty to the sect and its ideals. That's mainly a pack thing, and each pack likely has its own criteria on when it gets performed. I believe most False Sabbat get destroyed in war against the Sabbat's enemies before they ever have the chance of becoming True Sabbat. An important enough defector, probably plans his defection well in advance and does so in a way that probably allows him to receive the Creation Rites immediately upon defection. But ordinary schmuck vampires? They're in for hell.

The different clan weakness and discpline sets of the original Player's Guide is an artifact of its times, when almost every bloodline had its own special thing, and there was a new bloodline every other book. There isn't an in-game reason for it. There's no reason to carry that over unless you like that sort of thing. If you do like, either handwave it away or come up with your own explanation that sounds good.

[Muad'Dib]

I assume there remains the distinction between "False Sabbat" versus "True Sabbat". You're not True Sabbat until the Creation Rite is applied to you, and that only happens when you prove yourself. Sabbat won't perform the Creation Rites on any defectors to their sect until they've done something that proves their loyalty to the sect and its ideals. That's mainly a pack thing, and each pack likely has its own criteria on when it gets performed. I believe most False Sabbat get destroyed in war against the Sabbat's enemies before they ever have the chance of becoming True Sabbat. An important enough defector, probably plans his defection well in advance and does so in a way that probably allows him to receive the Creation Rites immediately upon defection. But ordinary schmuck vampires? They're in for hell.

The different clan weakness and discpline sets of the original Player's Guide is an artifact of its times, when almost every bloodline had its own special thing, and there was a new bloodline every other book. There isn't an in-game reason for it. There's no reason to carry that over unless you like that sort of thing. If you do like, either handwave it away or come up with your own explanation that sounds good.

Yes the Creation Rites, I had the feeling I was missing something.