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  • Alternate Tremere Origins

    Hello there, so I was wondering on the potential of alternate Tremere origins. I love Thaumaturgy and the organized, intellectual Tremere but I am not a fan of them being Mages who used ritual magic to make themselves vampires. So I was wondering what other potential ideas could be done to keep them Tremere but change that element of their origin.

    One idea was that they were some low end vampires who used an old ancient blood sorcery ritual to empower their collaborative act of diablerie.

  • #2
    Originally posted by LordHeru View Post
    Hello there, so I was wondering on the potential of alternate Tremere origins. I love Thaumaturgy and the organized, intellectual Tremere but I am not a fan of them being Mages who used ritual magic to make themselves vampires. So I was wondering what other potential ideas could be done to keep them Tremere but change that element of their origin.

    One idea was that they were some low end vampires who used an old ancient blood sorcery ritual to empower their collaborative act of diablerie.
    Are they still thaumaturges in your version?


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      Are they still thaumaturges in your version?
      Yep, at least I think so. Mostly because I really like the idea of a clan focused on blood sorceries and such intellectually magical pursuits. So it makes sense for them to keep that focus.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by LordHeru View Post

        Yep, at least I think so. Mostly because I really like the idea of a clan focused on blood sorceries and such intellectually magical pursuits. So it makes sense for them to keep that focus.
        One more question, are the Salubri are a thing in your backstory or are we removing them too?


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          Some alternate origins:

          * The Tremere are descended from an order of Druids that ruled the British Isles and offered human sacrifices to bloody versions of the Celtic Gods like the Tuatha de Daanan. They were ultimately defeated and conquered by the Ventrue. The Tremere proceeded to go underground in Masonic lodges, heretical Christian cults, and so on to create a much more intellectual and less atavistic clan.

          * The Tremere were a group of Brujah philosophers who fled from Carthage to Transylvania and brought with them Babylonian magic and infernalism. Infused with a hatred for the Ventrue, they proceeded to diablerize the Salubri Clan and became their own Clan with their own founder. They are the true inheritors of the Brujah's intellectual and scientific roots.

          * The Tremere are not actually a Clan but are just a group of Tzimisce that have become more powerful than their kinfolk. House Tremere followed a 4th generation vampire of the same name who proceeded to participate in the Anarch Revolt and claimed to have been the one to destroy the Tzimisce Antediluvian. They, however, treacherously decided to side with the Camarilla and devoted themselves 100% to it.

          * The Knights Templar made a pact with Baphomut and were transformed into vampires (since Baphomut was almost certainly a Baali, Gangrel, or Tzimisce). The Knights proceeded to corrupt the rest of their order until they were driven away by the Pope and outlawed. The Tremere are not actually a "Clan" but have the numbers of powers to be recognized as such. The lowest generation Tremere is 5th generation and the Council of Seven are 6th generation.

          * The Tremere replace the Salubri with their clan dating back to the Second City. They choose from witches, high priests, scribes, and other figures and always seek the mystics of every culture they clan. There is no Council of Seven or Vienna but a variety of ancient wizard colleges and chantries spread throughout the glove.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            One more question, are the Salubri are a thing in your backstory or are we removing them too?
            That's, well, that's a good question. One I hadn't thought of honestly. I just looked them up and I must say I like them a bit more then I like the Tremere, lol.

            So hmm, not sure actually.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              Some alternate origins:

              ....
              These are brilliant, thank you.

              I see much potential in many of them actually. The ones that immediately call to me as potential hooks are these.


              * The Tremere are descended from an order of Druids that ruled the British Isles and offered human sacrifices to bloody versions of the Celtic Gods like the Tuatha de Daanan. They were ultimately defeated and conquered by the Ventrue. The Tremere proceeded to go underground in Masonic lodges, heretical Christian cults, and so on to create a much more intellectual and less atavistic clan.
              While I am not sure I want to use this for the Tremere I do really like the whole idea of an order of druids who became vampires. I like this more than Mages becoming vampires because the way I see it this order of druids are practitioners of mortal magics and not the high willworkings of the spheres or whatnot of Ascension magic.

              * The Tremere are not actually a Clan but are just a group of Tzimisce that have become more powerful than their kinfolk. House Tremere followed a 4th generation vampire of the same name who proceeded to participate in the Anarch Revolt and claimed to have been the one to destroy the Tzimisce Antediluvian. They, however, treacherously decided to side with the Camarilla and devoted themselves 100% to it.
              This leads me to the potential idea of instead of making it a clan like the others it is more like a guild treated like clan - an 'order' of vampires as it were devoted to the scholarly development and use of thaumaturgy. Its members come from all the other clans in good standing, undergo ritual to make them 'Tremere' and such. The question becomes do they loose what they had before or do they gain Thaumaturgy as a new favored discipline - I think I might go with that. The 'Weakness' that they gain is because the ritual requires a sharing of blood.

              * The Tremere replace the Salubri with their clan dating back to the Second City. They choose from witches, high priests, scribes, and other figures and always seek the mystics of every culture they clan. There is no Council of Seven or Vienna but a variety of ancient wizard colleges and chantries spread throughout the glove.
              [/QUOTE]

              I also like this, though I might become sad to loose the discipline that the Salubri bring to the game and thus might have to find a way to fit it in. But he idea that it always being Tremere could work. But yeah this is a good idea too.

              --

              Right now I am divided upon whether to go with the idea of the Tremere Always Was There are the Tremere As Not Clan But Order. Hmmm

              I do want to admit that part of this is that I personally have an interest in changing up the whole clan listing. But that gets into a different potential topic idea that I don't know if I'm gonna post and stuff.

              That said these ideas are great, so thank you very much for them!

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              • #8
                You might enjoy checking out the Ordo Dracul from Chronicles of Darkness. Vampire: The Requiem is a lot more flexible than Masquerade if you don't like the clans.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #9
                  A group of settites who went atheist or at at least "Set isn't a God" or some variant there in.(could potentially tie them to Christianity). They keep much of the apostate prostylization and you can see how Thaum evolves from Settite Sorcery without the Religious(Or superstious as they say!) trappings.

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                  • #10
                    They're infernalists who sold their souls to the devil for immortality and this is what they got.


                    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                    Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                      You might enjoy checking out the Ordo Dracul from Chronicles of Darkness. Vampire: The Requiem is a lot more flexible than Masquerade if you don't like the clans.
                      This is a complicated thing for me actually. There are elements of Masquerade that I love and there are elements of Requiem that I love.

                      Requiem has a bit more vampires are social which I like, but even more I think its Blood Potency mechanic and the nature of Coils of the Blood and some of its other mechanics are really good. The problem with Requiem though is I am not a fan of its Second Edition, like at all, like to the point that while I own Blood and Smoke I have it on the topmost shelf hidden from other books and every time I go through it there are elements that have me frowning. So this kind of puts a damper on things in a way.

                      Masquerade has the Camarilla and Thaumaturgy and the idea of a single founder (for all that the religious aspect of it is ignored by me). Some of its elements aren't exactly great but at the same time its Disciplines are very fun looking for me. The problem with Masquerade is Generations (easy to fix/ignore as I want my young vampires to get high disciplines), Humanity (not a fan of morality systems at all, never have been) and the way merits and flaws are set up, which when one things about it is a small set of issues that can easily be solved.

                      But what makes it more my focus right now is the fact that I just bought the pod's of 20th Anniversary Vampire the Masquerade AND Dark Ages Vampire so I want to use them now that they will be on my physical shelf rather than simply on my computer as pdf files. hehe.

                      So yeah, I figure if I am fine with Masquerade mechanics but want to change some fluff I might as well work with that. Not that I don't keep on looking into Requiem for some nifty ideas and such.

                      I mean me saying 'The Tremere are less a blood lineage in and of itself and more an organization that vampires from any blood lineages can go and join to become part of an order of lorekeepers' sounds pretty good to me. Especially as Thaumaturgy is right there, and I love me some thaumaturgy.

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                      • #12
                        The Tremere came from a collection of pagan priests and magi around the time the Eastern Roman Empire formally outlaws everything but Christianity. They turned to vampirism to preserve themselves, their traditions and so forth. Of course, it went badly for them.

                        Edit: Also, they are from further East than Romania, with Ceoris probably being in the nation of Georgia.

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                        • #13

                          -Tremere was embraced normally, might have been a mage in life, in any case had access to a super-dope library, orchestrated the staking of near-everyone in his city, devoured them in an orderly fashion, and began his plan to take over the world, learn everything, and reach godhood. When he Devoured Saulot and fell into torpor, his clan continued to move on his ambition.

                          -Tremere just was an Antideluvian. He decided to sire his clan late, making others think they were new.*

                          -Tremere is the new name for an old antideluvian who wanted a new clan.* Ventrue, perhaps.

                          -The above 2, but he was embraced a Methuselah, and ate Saulot. Perhaps he was Saulot's child before Saulot learned Valeren, or perhaps he was Tzmisce's child before Vicissitude.

                          -The Tremere were *insert clan here* but then they used rituals to change their blood and become their own bloodline.



                          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                          • #14
                            Thanks for the comments I really appreciate them. While they are all cool some call to me more.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            -Tremere was embraced normally, might have been a mage in life, in any case had access to a super-dope library, orchestrated the staking of near-everyone in his city, devoured them in an orderly fashion, and began his plan to take over the world, learn everything, and reach godhood. When he Devoured Saulot and fell into torpor, his clan continued to move on his ambition.
                            This sounds exactly like the actual House Tremere of Ars Magica, hehe.

                            -Tremere just was an Antideluvian. He decided to sire his clan late, making others think they were new.*

                            -Tremere is the new name for an old antideluvian who wanted a new clan.* Ventrue, perhaps.
                            I actually really like this. Mostly because it showcases that Generation is much less a matter of time and more about well generation. So the idea that there was an Antideluvian that didn't make a clan of his own for thousands of years and then eventually decided now is the right time is very interesting to me. Especially as he probably used the thousand years to create various Thaumaturgy Paths.

                            This makes a lot of sense for the name. When he resurfaced he didn't call himself by his ancient name but the name he was calling himself now.

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                            • #15
                              In DA 20 Kiyasids were retconned from a proper bloodline into a condition that occurs when you embrace someone with too much faeness(whether this is full changelings, people with changeling blood its... difficult to answer). They were carried over into the modern nights as the Maeghar.

                              So. Tremere are what happens when you embrace a Mage or Hedge Mage. They keep their magic as one of their In clans. This explains various Blood magical lineages over the years.(assamite sorcerers, Deva, Echinada witches). They pass on their magical quality in the blood generally.

                              The Modern Tremere are much closer to being like Ars Order of Hermes They were a gathering of loose lineages of blood mages from various clans who brought together a unified magical theory that is much more functional than each on theirown(thus justifying Thaum as having access to a greater diversity of Paths and rituals).

                              They are functionally a sect within a sect in the camarilla, with the Sabbat becoming more the proponent of "Old school" religious practices.

                              Or there is a Tremere house in the sabbat that they are totally at war with like how Nos are totally at war with eachother!

                              Or they are a an independent faction that plays bothsides.

                              IF you want them to be a real clan they can kill one of the following clans:

                              Setites, Kill set. IT won't change their religion much! You'd have a nice contrast between the Secular and the religious casters here.

                              Salubri: This can be MUCH more fun. Remember how "Everyone" makes Tremere in this scenario.. well Salubri don't. Why? Well... when they embrace a magician there is a strong call to Damnation in their blood.. They make a Baali instead. This was their dirty secret that the Tremere uncover as they come into existance as an organized bunch of blood mages. Saulot's dirty secret gets out and people are VERY accepting of the new "clan" cleaning it up.

                              Version 2: That is a complete misunderstanding of the Baali/Salubri relationship. IT does exist but this was used to justify and placate other factions.

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