Combining Generation and Blood Potency

[LordHeru]

Hello there so I like the Masquerade idea of Generation in the sense of one's connection to Caine and I like the Requiem idea of Blood Potency as a method to showcase the increasing power one gets as they spend more time as a vampire. Which leads me to wondering if there was a way to combine to the two systems in Masquerade.

Obviously, having it so a vampire's Blood Potency rises as they ages would be simple. But then what would the Generation mechanic apply to. Could it provide some bonuses or something rather than trait limits.

So yeah, just curious if anyone else had thought of how to combine the two features in Masquerade.

[Black Fox]

You may want to create a formula or table that converts age to Blood Potency points that are equivalent to Generation. The age brackets need not be the same (i.e. every hundred years equals 1 point). You could have 0-100 years = 0 points of Potency; 101-250 equals 1; 251-500 equals 2; 501-800 equals 3, etc. or whatever. Use whatever table makes sense for you. Then allow those points to subtract from Generation to determine the equivalent "level" for game mechanic purposes.

Therefore, using the age brackets above, a neonate vampire of the 10th Generation is at 10 "levels". But a five hundred year old vampire of the 10th Generation is at level 8, and would be equivalent to a neonate of the 8th generation.

Tremere Path of Blood allowed them to increase their "Generation" temporarily, so this is just a riff of that but permanent.

[Penelope]

You may want to create a formula or table that converts age to Blood Potency points that are equivalent to Generation. The age brackets need not be the same (i.e. every hundred years equals 1 point). You could have 0-100 years = 0 points of Potency; 101-250 equals 1; 251-500 equals 2; 501-800 equals 3, etc. or whatever. Use whatever table makes sense for you. Then allow those points to subtract from Generation to determine the equivalent "level" for game mechanic purposes.

Therefore, using the age brackets above, a neonate vampire of the 10th Generation is at 10 "levels". But a five hundred year old vampire of the 10th Generation is at level 8, and would be equivalent to a neonate of the 8th generation.

Tremere Path of Blood allowed them to increase their "Generation" temporarily, so this is just a riff of that but permanent.

That’s actually a really good idea. Generation and Blood Potency would basically work together to determine how powerful a certain Kindred is. Would you use the mechanics from Requiem where vampires with high BP need to feed on Kindred Vitae and where Blood Potency goes down after a couple decades in Torpor?

[LordHeru]

You may want to create a formula or table that converts age to Blood Potency points that are equivalent to Generation. The age brackets need not be the same (i.e. every hundred years equals 1 point). You could have 0-100 years = 0 points of Potency; 101-250 equals 1; 251-500 equals 2; 501-800 equals 3, etc. or whatever. Use whatever table makes sense for you. Then allow those points to subtract from Generation to determine the equivalent "level" for game mechanic purposes.

Therefore, using the age brackets above, a neonate vampire of the 10th Generation is at 10 "levels". But a five hundred year old vampire of the 10th Generation is at level 8, and would be equivalent to a neonate of the 8th generation.

Tremere Path of Blood allowed them to increase their "Generation" temporarily, so this is just a riff of that but permanent.

This is actually really brilliant, really really brilliant. Gonna work on a chart to do this and everything. I honestly really like the idea that Blood Potency rises with Age for everyone but that certain people get a leg up on that thanks to their closeness to the Progenitor. What might have taken the early generations only years to get now take thousands of years for the later generations. So yeah, this is really really cool.

I mean the idea that the Second Generation started with say Blood Potency 9 is interesting.

So yeah, this is really great. Thanks for the idea.

[False Epiphany]

I married Blood Potency with generation a while before V5 did it in my games. This is the system I've used:

Generation	Maximum Blood Potency	Approx. Years to Reach
14th+	0: vampire is a thin-blood	0
13th	1, and sires thin-bloods	0
12th	1	0
11th	2	50
10th	3	100
9th	4	200
8th	5	300
7th	6	500
6th	7	1,000
5th	8	1,500
4th	9	2,000
3rd	10	Unknown

Starting Blood Potency: All vampires of the 13th and lower generations begin their unlives at Blood Potency 1. Vampires with especially strong-blooded sires (Blood Potency 6+) start with Blood Potency equal to (sire’s Blood Potency – 4). Such “privileged” childer enter undeath with a significant edge, but are prime targets for diablerie.

Time and Blood Potency: Blood Potency increases as a vampire ages. Consult the above table to determine a character’s typical Blood Potency. These times are approximations, not hard measurements. A 5th-generation Cainite could have Blood Potency 8 but “only” been Embraced 1,231 years ago. Intense experiences and exposure to potent vitae can also speed the rate at which a vampire gains Blood Potency dots. Torpor can make a vampire’s Blood Potency temporarily go down.

[LordHeru]

I married Blood Potency with generation a while before V5 did it in my games. This is the system I've used: [TABLE]

-snip chart due to how big it is despite how lovely it is -

Starting Blood Potency: All vampires of the 13th and lower generations begin their unlives at Blood Potency 1. Vampires with especially strong-blooded sires (Blood Potency 6+) start with Blood Potency equal to (sire’s Blood Potency – 4). Such “privileged” childer enter undeath with a significant edge, but are prime targets for diablerie.

Time and Blood Potency: Blood Potency increases as a vampire ages. Consult the above table to determine a character’s typical Blood Potency. These times are approximations, not hard measurements. A 5th-generation Cainite could have Blood Potency 8 but “only” been Embraced 1,231 years ago. Intense experiences and exposure to potent vitae can also speed the rate at which a vampire gains Blood Potency dots. Torpor can make a vampire’s Blood Potency temporarily go down.

This is spectacularly awesome and I thank you very much for it. I'm basically going to yoink this in its entirety since it basically covers exactly what I want.

(Its a brilliant summation of what Black Fox suggested too.)

So basically a player character who buys the Generation Background at three dots starts the game at Blood Potency 3 and the equivalent of 10th Generation.

I really like this, obviously, as it means that given time (and surviving the nights) one could technically become a world shaping vampire.

--

Ooh, so I noticed something that I really like. Those sired by someone with Potency 6+ starts with sire's Potency - 4 which means that maybe when the 2nd Gen founded the 3rd gen the 3rd gen started at say Potency 6. Which kind of intrigues me cause it means even they had to develop their blood stronger. (I could se Caine's direct children starting higher but even they shouldn't start at say 10).

-

But yeah, this is great. A perfect way to represent both Generation and Blood Potency in the same game. So thank you very much.

[elmerg]

This is literally what V5 does.

Generation determines your minmum/starting and maximum Blood Potency (representing the hard ceiling of Generation ,but allowing power variance). For example, 13th Gen starts with BP1 and a max of 3; 8th Gen has a starting BP of 2 and a max of 6.
Generation also allows you to better resist Dominate, outright ignoring it with a WP, from those of higher Generation than you.
Blood Potency then effects all the other bonuses; higher BP means more healing per attempt, more dice to a blood surge to add dice to a pool, and a few other things.

Overall it feels like a good implementation with the V5 dice math.

[False Epiphany]

So basically a player character who buys the Generation Background at three dots starts the game at Blood Potency 3 and the equivalent of 10th Generation.

Players don't need to buy a Generation Background. They all start at Blood Potency 1 and the chronicle takes place in the modern era, so generation has minimal game effect. I decide who their PCs' sires are, so I effectively decide what generations they are.

Ooh, so I noticed something that I really like. Those sired by someone with Potency 6+ starts with sire's Potency - 4 which means that maybe when the 2nd Gen founded the 3rd gen the 3rd gen started at say Potency 6. Which kind of intrigues me cause it means even they had to develop their blood stronger. (I could se Caine's direct children starting higher but even they shouldn't start at say 10).

The third generation's cap is Blood Potency 10, so that makes the second generation's cap BP 11 and the Caine's cap BP 12. A newly-sired Antediluvian would be BP 7, assuming their sire was BP 11. Caine's new childer would be BP 8, assuming he was BP 12.

But yeah, this is great. A perfect way to represent both Generation and Blood Potency in the same game. So thank you very much.

Glad you like. As elmerg says, V5 also does this. Its numbers are simply different than mine. IIRC, V5 allows several of the highest generations to achieve up to BP 3, and makes BP 10 the cap at fourth generation. I preferred a more staggered approach with a different BP cap for each generation.

[LordHeru]

Players don't need to buy a Generation Background. They all start at Blood Potency 1 and the chronicle takes place in the modern era, so generation has minimal game effect. I decide who their PCs' sires are, so I effectively decide what generations they are.

Ah. Gottcha. Okay, that makes a lot of sense to. So its basically a 'free' Generation given to players as part of story plot, which is something I totally like.

Mostly cause I like the idea that the player vampires are sired by beings of high high blood potency and so they start with a slight boost to their capabilities. Having them start with say 2 or 3 in Blood Potency right out of the Embrace is enough to show why they are special. (I like special players so this works for me.)

The third generation's cap is Blood Potency 10, so that makes the second generation's cap BP 11 and the Caine's cap BP 12. A newly-sired Antediluvian would be BP 7, assuming their sire was BP 11. Caine's new childer would be BP 8, assuming he was BP 12.

Oh, so 10 is the highest possible Blood Potency? I mean considering that the the three elements of Blood Potency are max trait (which has to be 10), blood pool and points per turn it doesn't really need to be limited to 10 like attribute, ability, power or whatnot dots.

When you think about it having BP of 8 moments after the Embrace doesn't immediately give you power - well, beyond you being capable of holding more blood and being able to do more with it per turn then others. But you still start with basic ratings in attributes, abilities, and Disciplines.

Glad you like. As elmerg says, V5 also does this. Its numbers are simply different than mine. IIRC, V5 allows several of the highest generations to achieve up to BP 3, and makes BP 10 the cap at fourth generation. I preferred a more staggered approach with a different BP cap for each generation.

While information about V5 was good to know I don't actually own it and so my look through it was basically a quick preview rather than an indepth read. But it is interesting to me that they realized the nature of Generation was cool for thematic sense but that the potential to grow in power through increasing Blood Potency was also something needed. So yeah, glad they did that.

I never liked the fact that unless the player character vampires take the soul of an elder vampire they would never be able to get the nifty toys of Discipline 6+. So this idea of taking Generation as a base but letting time progress one further is really brilliant to me. The fact that, given two such millennai, even thin blood vampires would be able to to Blood Potency 8+ fits well with my interests.

[False Epiphany]

Oh, so 10 is the highest possible Blood Potency?

The highest there's any kind of game mechanic for. Caine and his childer, as said, theoretically have BP 11 and BP 12.

I never liked the fact that unless the player character vampires take the soul of an elder vampire they would never be able to get the nifty toys of Discipline 6+. So this idea of taking Generation as a base but letting time progress one further is really brilliant to me. The fact that, given two such millennai, even thin blood vampires would be able to to Blood Potency 8+ fits well with my interests.

Well, to be clear, that's not what the above rules do. Generation is a ceiling rather than a floor for Blood Potency. A 10th-generation vampire starts at Blood Potency 1, hits BP 2 after ~50 years, and maxes out at BP 3 after ~100 years. Whether they're around for 200, 600, or 5,000 years after that, they stay Blood Potency 3. Their bad luck to get a weak-blooded sire if they don't want to commit diablerie.

But if you want generation to be a floor rather than a ceiling, that's easy enough to fix. Just have every generation start with BP at its formerly maximum value, and make BP 10 the new maximum for everyone. Or even just do away with generation and have every new vampire's BP be (sire's BP - 1).

[LordHeru]

Well, to be clear, that's not what the above rules do. Generation is a ceiling rather than a floor for Blood Potency. A 10th-generation vampire starts at Blood Potency 1, hits BP 2 after ~50 years, and maxes out at BP 3 after ~100 years. Whether they're around for 200, 600, or 5,000 years after that, they stay Blood Potency 3. Their bad luck to get a weak-blooded sire if they don't want to commit diablerie.

But if you want generation to be a floor rather than a ceiling, that's easy enough to fix. Just have every generation start with BP at its formerly maximum value, and make BP 10 the new maximum for everyone. Or even just do away with generation and have every new vampire's BP be (sire's BP - 1).

Ah, gottcha.

Right. So I don't mind Generation being a ceiling, i just want it to be a proverbial glass ceiling. I want it to be something that given time can be pushed through. This pushing through doesn't have to be easy but it should be possible, especially for the player characters.

Okay so lets think of terminology. We call raising Blood Potency as Thickening of the Blood which makes me wonder what we should call 'lowering' Generation. Hmm, how about Purifying the Blood maybe. Those with Lower Generations have Purer Blood then those of greater generation. They also most often have Thicker Blood as well, though this doesn't have to automatically be true.

If Age raises Blood Potency then I am not sure what else, besides Diablerizing someone and I don't want to force that to be the only possibility, could let one break through the glass ceiling. Could it be a ritual maybe.

[LordHeru]

So I am thinking of doing something like this. I am very much interested in thoughts. But I think this works as a way to keep both Generation and Blood Potency while making the limits of Generation more a glass ceiling than a brick one.

Terms Purifying the Blood refers to lowering Generation.
Strengthening the Blood refers to increasing Blood Potency.

Generation	Minimum Blood Potency	Maximum Blood Potency
1st and 2nd	???	???
3rd	8	10
4th	7	9
5th	6	8
6th	5	7
7th	4	6
8th	3	5
9th	2	4
10th and 11th	1	3
12th and 13th	1	2
14th+ (Thin Blooded)	0	1
Notes On average, Blood Potency rises a time for every 100 years of activity and falls a point every 50 years in Tupor.

Generation Tier	Time to Breakthrough
14th to 13th	50
13th & 12th to 11th	100
11th & 10th to 9th	200
9th to 8th	300
8th to 7th	500
7th to 6th	1000
6th to 5th	1500
5th to 4th	2000
4th to 3rd	3000
3rd to 2nd	Unknown
2nd to 1st	Impossible
Notes The times are per each step. Meaning that for a vampire of the Ninth Generation to become a Seventh Generation vampire approximately 800 years need to pass. This means that it would take a Fourteenth Generation vampire approximately 8,650 years to become a Third Generation vampire.

Blood Potency	Trait Maximum	Blood Pool Max	Blood Points per Turn
0	5	5	1
1	5	10	1
2	5	11	1
3	5	12	1
4	5	13	1
5	5	14	2
6	6	15	3
7	7	20	4
8	8	30	6
9	9	40	8
10	10	50	10
11+	10	???	???
Notes

[Black Fox]

Okay so lets think of terminology.

You are talking about three different, but interrelated, things. So it makes sense to break them up so terms are exclusive. That prevents confusion.

The first is what we could call potent blood or Generation - the inherent power of the vitae itself. (If calling it potent blood is confusing in regards to Blood Potency, call it potent vitae or whatever else you like).

The second is what we could call the power of age or Blood Potency - the power that accrues to a vampire with age, like how a wine's increased time of fermentation increases the alcohol content. You may want a new term to make it clear this is a result of age, since Blood Potency doesn't really get it across. Note that if age categories really do develop's own power, than the old terms of age - neonate, ancillae, elder, etc. have more important meaning. More categories with mechanical effects might mean your setting has even more terms for a vampire's age to signify his relative power among his Generation.

The third is the interrelation of the two that establishes some kind of power rank that has mechanical effects - use of Dominate, max spending of blood potents in a turn, etc. This is the new term that is needed. You may want to simply call it "power rank" or if that is not poetic enough maybe "grade of vitae" or "aged might" or "ripened blood". Or call this Blood Potency and use some other term for the second category (like Age Category/Class/Rank or just Age).

It all depends on your taste.

[KarlB]

Hello there so I like the Masquerade idea of Generation in the sense of one's connection to Caine and I like the Requiem idea of Blood Potency as a method to showcase the increasing power one gets as they spend more time as a vampire. Which leads me to wondering if there was a way to combine to the two systems in Masquerade.

Obviously, having it so a vampire's Blood Potency rises as they ages would be simple. But then what would the Generation mechanic apply to. Could it provide some bonuses or something rather than trait limits.

So yeah, just curious if anyone else had thought of how to combine the two features in Masquerade.

VTM V5 actually covers this very very well. Generation is potential. Blood Potency is the power within that potential. A 13th Generation vampire starts at BP 1 and maxes out at BP 3. An 8th Generation vampire starts at BP 2 and maxes out at BP 6.