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  • I've always liked the Giovanni, I thought that they had an interesting concept that allowed for a diverse set of ideas to fit into a single thematic package. I like that they are based on a mortal family, one that in inbred, evil, degenerate, but also really rich and able to manipulate and influence others. I like the mix of mystical and political. But, they made way more sense as a bloodline than a Clan. They are based on a human family, they are tied to one geographic region, they originated relatively recently. That all screams bloodline to me. Retconning isn't really an option for something so dramatic, but in essence the book does bring back a more diverse version of the Cappadocians and makes the Giovanni a bloodline, so my long desired setting change became a reality, along with Camarilla Lasombra.

    I do think that MyWifeisScary makes a good point though about ease of inclusion, which was always an issue with not only the Giovanni but other Hecata bloodline and even other unrelated Clans. Now, I admit I haven't read CotBG yet, aside from skimming a bit here and there, so I might learn more about this as I read more, but it seems like it still might be awkward to, for example, include a member of one of the Hecata bloodlines in a Camarilla, Anarch, or (eventually maybe?) Sabbat chronicle.
    Last edited by Sergeant Brother; 11-23-2020, 02:04 PM.

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    • The Capadocians worked because they were just -one of the boys-.
      Total weirdos
      But you just had to go down the road to find your resident corpse fucker.

      And I think that's kinda why the Samedi are just so cool. They're just mercenaries. Freelancers. They fit in anywhere. Camarilla game? Have a Samedi. Anarch game? Have a Samedi? Sabbat game. Here's your samedi. And you get a Samedi, and YOU get a samedi, and you get a samedi. Throw in a Flesh eater in case you're using too many Samedi (You can never use too many Samedi) they function mostly the same when they're not busy living it up with the weirder cults.

      I totally get the Capadocians getting killed off. The Giovanni are just better than them. Better organized, more motivated, A more practical discipline spread, they primarily practiced a path with far more utility in modern night... The subsidiary families are cool too. But they just don't play well with others. You don't just go down the road to find your resident corpse-fucker with Giovanni. But also... should corpse fucking, an inherently anti-social activity, really be a product of big-organizations? It's not like Thaumaturgy where you need big groups to learn from and shield you from people who covet your myriad of secrets. Corpse fucking is a lot simpler than thaumaturgy, and sane people don't want to fuck corpses.. it's a far less attractive profession. There doesn't need to be a monolith organization to control all corpse fuckers.

      The push should be -more Samedi types- not -more obtuse cult-family bullshit- . The corpse fuckers should've decentralized further, not fucking absorbed everything tangentially interested in the Dead into a bigger cult of stupid.
      Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 11-23-2020, 02:16 PM.


      Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
      There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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      • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        The Capadocians worked because they were just -one of the boys-.
        Total weirdos
        But you just had to go down the road to find your resident corpse fucker.
        Probably a good time to leave the thread, MyWifeIsScary. Showing up in the thread for nothing but criticism is something that we've talked about in the past. You've been backsliding recently into, "talking about nothing but V5's flaws."

        It's doubly problematic when you're arguing with developers.

        If you hate everything about V5, that's fine, but then don't participate in V5 threads. Just participate in V20. This is your final warning.
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-23-2020, 07:11 PM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
          I've always liked the Giovanni, I thought that they had an interesting concept that allowed for a diverse set of ideas to fit into a single thematic package. I like that they are based on a mortal family, one that in inbred, evil, degenerate, but also really rich and able to manipulate and influence others. I like the mix of mystical and political. But, they made way more sense as a bloodline than a Clan. They are based on a human family, they are tied to one geographic region, they originated relatively recently. That all screams bloodline to me. Retconning isn't really an option for something so dramatic, but in essence the book does bring back a more diverse version of the Cappadocians and makes the Giovanni a bloodline, so my long desired setting change became a reality, along with Camarilla Lasombra.
          .
          Except they aren't. As far back as the 1E Clan Book, they've been established to be more than just the Giovanni Family and have reach beyond Venice. Both of which make sense with the mercantile background of Venice and the Giovanni. At it's height, Venice's influence extended far beyond it's walls. By the same token, the Giovanni followed Venetian trade and expand their own influence through it. They'll find local individuals and families that are useful and pliable and bring them into the Clan, increasing the Clan's influence, wealth and power.

          Which exactly the history of the Clan and it's families.

          Further because of the Promise, the Giovanni have not had to worry about Camarilla leadership getting in their way. And at the same time, since they're not part of the Camarilla, the Anarchs and Sabbat are not automatically hostile to them which in turn allows them to have dealing with all the Sects. All of which would allow them to grow without too much impeding from outsiders.


          Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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          • Whilst I find Samedi, Nagaraja and Harbingers far more interesting and have used them hundreds of times more than the G. theres a ton of great fan write ups of them that have been written up transferring from VtM to V5 so its just easier to use those than sorting through the mess of Hecata to try and retrieve useful mechanics and information for them from the pulped mass that is the Hecata.

            But who am I kidding I'm unlikely to ever touch V5 again unless someone paid me to, and when I have a choice between spending my money on overly complicated, mostly useless ( in my chronicles) books like CotBG or instead beautiful useful products like Vampire the Classic Age well, I'm always gonna choose the latter.

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            • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              But the Hecata hasn't been made more accessible to normal play. Camarilla game? No Hecata. Anarch game? No Hecata. Sabbat game? Ahahaha kill me.
              (also... I'm on board with a coup, but it doesn't change how off it is to find all death-clan bloodlines and that one corpse-fucking bloodline who Tremere'd a Setite have all been lazily amalgamated into a 'clan'. Talk about a wrestlemania plot)
              I've started work on a modern setting in which the Camarilla and Anarchs are locked in a cold war (because the moderates in both Sects won't let it warm up). The Hecata are the honest brokers. (Oh, all right then, "honest" brokers) between the two, led by a Premascine Giovanni who is a bridge between the two major branches of the family. Their services are also in demand because a rash of ghost sightings, courtesy of some previous "advanced research" by the clan, threatens to draw the attention of the Newburgh Group.

              There are a ton of ways you can use them in a Camarilla or Anarch game. As with the Tremere, making them more diverse and less monolithic opens up many possibilities.

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              • Originally posted by Damian May View Post
                Whilst I find Samedi, Nagaraja and Harbingers far more interesting and have used them hundreds of times more than the G. theres a ton of great fan write ups of them that have been written up transferring from VtM to V5 so its just easier to use those than sorting through the mess of Hecata to try and retrieve useful mechanics and information for them from the pulped mass that is the Hecata.

                But who am I kidding I'm unlikely to ever touch V5 again unless someone paid me to, and when I have a choice between spending my money on overly complicated, mostly useless ( in my chronicles) books like CotBG or instead beautiful useful products like Vampire the Classic Age well, I'm always gonna choose the latter.
                Please leave this thread. If you see a thread about discussing a book, maybe you shouldn't show up in a thread to trash it. This is also a final warning that V5 bashing will get you sent to the cornfield for good.

                If you don't like it, well, this is a company that produces a lot of fine V5 products that they have put their hearts and souls in. Probably not best to bash it on their forum.



                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                  Please leave this thread. If you see a thread about discussing a book, maybe you shouldn't show up in a thread to trash it. This is also a final warning that V5 bashing will get you sent to the cornfield for good.

                  If you don't like it, well, this is a company that produces a lot of fine V5 products that they have put their hearts and souls in. Probably not best to bash it on their forum.
                  Nah, I'm pretty sure that this is a thread for discussing a book, as someone who has purchased and read said book I feel perfectly at ease using this thread for its intended purpose.

                  Feel free to stop me from doing so.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Damian May View Post

                    Nah, I'm pretty sure that this is a thread for discussing a book, as someone who has purchased and read said book I feel perfectly at ease using this thread for its intended purpose.

                    Feel free to stop me from doing so.
                    And you're banned for a week.
                    Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-23-2020, 11:10 PM.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • Originally posted by Damian May View Post

                      Nah, I'm pretty sure that this is a thread for discussing a book, as someone who has purchased and read said book I feel perfectly at ease using this thread for its intended purpose.

                      Feel free to stop me from doing so.
                      As a friendly piece of advice from someone who knows first hand (different company and their forums), don't play the "I dare you to do it" card.

                      I was trashing the concept of Cade Skywalker (I still have problems with that character) on the Dark Horse Comics forums, and I received a permanent ban from posting on said forums because I had stated that they couldn't do so because of the 1st Amendment.... I was wrong because they're a private company and I was unceremoniously blocked from their boards from posting ever again.

                      So, tread carefully.


                      ***Edit: Too late....

                      ***Edit #2: When I first read your response to CTPhipps, the scene from Star Trek VI when Kim Cattrall's character was telling Captain Kirk that something was against Starfleet regulations, and Uhura shaking her head saying "no, no, no!" Came to mind.
                      Last edited by Japheth; 11-23-2020, 09:44 PM.


                      "Remember, remember, the Fifth of November, the Gunpowder Treason and Plot. I know of no reason why the Gunpowder Treason should ever be forgot."

                      -V for Vendetta

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                      • Originally posted by JezMiller View Post

                        I've started work on a modern setting in which the Camarilla and Anarchs are locked in a cold war (because the moderates in both Sects won't let it warm up). The Hecata are the honest brokers. (Oh, all right then, "honest" brokers) between the two, led by a Premascine Giovanni who is a bridge between the two major branches of the family. Their services are also in demand because a rash of ghost sightings, courtesy of some previous "advanced research" by the clan, threatens to draw the attention of the Newburgh Group.

                        There are a ton of ways you can use them in a Camarilla or Anarch game. As with the Tremere, making them more diverse and less monolithic opens up many possibilities.
                        Honestly you don't even need to make changes. As Gentleman Gamer commented earlier, there's a whole page dedicated concepts for Hecata Chronicles in cities that are Anarch or Cam as well as running Hecata PCs in mixed coteries. Further, the book has a Hecata Chronicle with a pre-made coterie of PCs with several of them being from other Clans.

                        Frankly, you can run the Giovanni the same way. Hell, for a long time I've been doing much of the same with the Giovanni in my Chronicles.

                        For example, earlier this year I ran a V20 Chicago Chronicles using the old Chicago Chronicles books. One of the things I did was expand the Giovanni presence in the city. Local Giovanni abide by Lodin's laws (well as much as any Kindred in Chicago do), attend Elysium, do discrete jobs for kindred when they want to make sure that the Prince and the Primogen won't find out, handle matters with ghosts of course, etc. as a 'neutral' third party.


                        Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

                        Comment


                        • Just logged in after a while where I could not keep up with my chronicle updates (work, work work) to say that although haven't gone through all the book it looks great. Hecata are very welcome and the reason I supported the campaign, but I am really enjoying the cults section. I had already the never-ending project of making a homebrew Barcelona by Night (who knows, if they ever let publish V5 in storyteller's vault it will go there) and I already had a Bahari leader based on what I read in the Tal'mahe'ra in V20. Then again, the diversity of cults described helped me a great length. Be sure I'll have a Mithraeum and some Ashfinders around (after all Bcn is at spit distance from Ibiza and full of IT companies).

                          I was just reading a book regarding the city's myths and old religions, and in the Roman chapter I had to smile when they described the Mitraist initiation ritual, after which they took the status of Corax XD

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                          • First time posting, and I swear to God, I have only ONE answer to this fucking book:

                            What.The.Fuck

                            What is wrong with you people? Why and how in the name of all that is rational, how the fuck ,did anyone approve the Shalimites? Have you heard of anti-semitism?
                            Who read this and said "yeah cool lets connect jewish imagery with a fucking nihilistic void cult, nobody will take it the wrong way".

                            In case you people did not know,here's the definition of anti-semitism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

                            Maybe you people forgot the rise in anti-semitism especially on social media.
                            Or maybe you just did it for exposure?
                            If this doesnt get removed in the original version, someone's gonna sue the fuck out of Onyx Path for this.

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                            • Originally posted by schwartzpedro View Post
                              First time posting, and I swear to God, I have only ONE answer to this fucking book:

                              What.The.Fuck

                              What is wrong with you people? Why and how in the name of all that is rational, how the fuck ,did anyone approve the Shalimites? Have you heard of anti-semitism?
                              Who read this and said "yeah cool lets connect jewish imagery with a fucking nihilistic void cult, nobody will take it the wrong way".

                              In case you people did not know,here's the definition of anti-semitism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

                              Maybe you people forgot the rise in anti-semitism especially on social media.
                              Or maybe you just did it for exposure?
                              If this doesnt get removed in the original version, someone's gonna sue the fuck out of Onyx Path for this.

                              Shalim is the Canaanite god of dusk, hence a Lasombra cult of Oblivion erecting itself around this figure. There's nothing relating to Judaism in the write-up of this cult, implicitly or explicitly, beyond the fact that some scholars believe the name "Jerusalem" stems from the word "Shalim".


                              Matthew Dawkins
                              In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


                              Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
                              Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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                              • Originally posted by schwartzpedro View Post
                                First time posting, and I swear to God, I have only ONE answer to this fucking book:

                                What.The.Fuck
                                Yeah, I think this is a rather incorrect reading of the text given it is a deity unrelated to Judaism.

                                It's also BIZARRE as a complaint given that there's a Church of Caine (which IS related to Abrahamic religion) a few pages over. Indeed, the entire concept of vampire is a dark interpretation of Abrahamic religion.

                                Please leave the thread and don't accuse the developers of antisemitism again.



                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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