The Cults of the Blood Gods discussion thread

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

I don't have the CotBG book, so I suggest just wing it.

[Saturno]

I don't have the CotBG book, so I suggest just wing it.

OK, but I also would take some hints from people knowing the V20 procedure at the moment.

[Dwight]

OK, but I also would take some hints from people knowing the V20 procedure at the moment.

The Sepulchre path of necromancy is all about the summoning and control of wraiths. Dot 2 let's you summon them provided you have a fetter they are tied to. 3 let's you command them.

[Saturno]

The Sepulchre path of necromancy is all about the summoning and control of wraiths. Dot 2 let's you summon them provided you have a fetter they are tied to. 3 let's you command them.

Yes, I know, but its not clear on wether I need to use the 3 dot power in order to have the wraith do something for me, or if it just makes them unable to refuse. CotBG makes it seem like 'Compel Spirit' is like the 'sledgehammer method', but one could do it otherwise if one would not want to make enemies among the wraiths. Furthermore the V20 descriptions make it seem like a fetter was more of a bonus, while CotBG states that you need a fetter.

Also all editions were kind of sparse with their examples how a complete summoning from finding the fetter/the individual wraith up to the point after they fulfilled your wish looks like.

[Dwight]

Yes, I know, but its not clear on wether I need to use the 3 dot power in order to have the wraith do something for me, or if it just makes them unable to refuse. CotBG makes it seem like 'Compel Spirit' is like the 'sledgehammer method', but one could do it otherwise if one would not want to make enemies among the wraiths. Furthermore the V20 descriptions make it seem like a fetter was more of a bonus, while CotBG states that you need a fetter.

Also all editions were kind of sparse with their examples how a complete summoning from finding the fetter/the individual wraith up to the point after they fulfilled your wish looks like.

If you could get a ghost to do something just by summoning it why would you need a power to get it to do something? And yes it's a sledgehammer method because "pretty please with ectoplasm on top" isn't a power, it's a negotiation tactic you use with the summoned ghost.

I think there is a ritual for finding a fetter but good old investigation work never hurts. "You know that teddy bear was so and so's most prized possession."

[Spencer from The Hills]

I presume that "Summon Spirit" is the standard way to summon ghosts. Do you need another? Bear in mind that identifying fetters is a level one, cost free power in V5. Previously, most necromancers didn't have a special way to identify fetters. It was possible with the Abombo/Cenotaph Path in Revised and the Path of Woe in V20, but they were obscure outside the Mla Watu, Ghiberti and Rosselini.

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Thanks for all the feedback. The player has much fun playing a Harbinger now. But after the last session some questions appeared to me concerning necromantic uses of Oblivion.

1. Do I always need a fetter to summon a wraith? I thought this was more of a bonus but not a necessary prerequisite. But the ceremonies in CotBG make it seem like it's necessary.

Actually back in V20, the Summon Spirit discipline did require the spirit's name or image of them and an object that they don't call a fetter but basically is one. So no, you always need a fetter to summon a spirit. It's also why in V5 Summon Spirit requires the discipline The Binding Fetter as that discipline is specifically about figuring out what is and isn't a fetter.

2. How would you describe a 'usual wraith summoning' from a game perspective?

What you wrote below is pretty much a typical general process for summoning a spirit. If you're talking about the ritual itself, there isn't really set method. In fact, I think they do that on purpose, writing the general mechanics for you need to do but leaving the actual open for players and ST to craft based on how they think their character would do it. For example, in the fluff bit at the start of the Oblivion section, we see Ambrogino Giovanni summon a spirit via putting some of his blood on the fetter and chanting in a dead language of some kind. A Samedi on the other hand may enact a Voodoo/Voudon style ritual to achieve the same results. Another Hecata of different religious bent may incorporate aspects of that into their ritual. For example, one of a Catholic bent may chant in Latin to summon the spirit. One game I was in years ago had a Giovanni that was more thuggish in their attitude and they once summoned a spirit like Ambrogino did but instead of speaking in a dead language, they simply started yelling out at the spirit in English, demanding that they come out.

One Giovanni I played before, hailed from the early 1900s and in life had been steeped in the Spiritualism movement of the time and his rituals were very reminiscent of that.

It all depends on the character in question.

What I did as a ST/what I improvised was the following:

The player wanted to summon a Ghost in the Machine in order to possess a car to run over a Tremere and initiate an ambush.

What she did was:
1. She noticed that Ghosts in the Machine are often very shy and figured that maybe she should be searching places where people died reclusive.
2. She used Investigation of local history/dead perople, Aura Perception and The Binding Fetter in order to find a wheel chair of someone, who was crippled in a car accident and loathed his existence and all other people neglecting him and died reclusive.
3. She used Where the Shroud Thins to find a good place for the ceremony.
4. She used Summon Spirit (which only works with a fetter?).
5. Because of her experience in the Shadowlands and what happened to Augustus Giovanni and because she had a Samedi mawla she didn't want to force the wraith into subjugation via Compel Spirit unless necessary. So she talked with him and persuaded him to do her bidding. This was possible because the service she asked him to do, was something he liked (Running people over with a possessed car, was something that related to his own history and his spite.) and because she promised to hold a commemoration telling his story to those, who forgot him.
6. Profit. (The wraith did as he was asked.)

What do you think about this? This worked narratively and enriched the session, but I'm interested if this was done as it was intended by the system. CotBG should go a bit more into detail than the manuscript tbh. And although I'm a Vampire player since the first edition I never played a necromancer. So I can't compare systems or even judge if this was fitting narratively.

If I was the ST I'd be fine with that process. It's a typical Necromancer approach. Though I would have probably had them make some persuasion rolls when it comes to convincing the wraith unless their roleplaying and/or arguments were good.

EDIT: Something I had forgotten about but Rites of the Blood in section on the Giovanni and Necromancy talks about the various basic beliefs based on the regions they hail from. Western Necromancy among the bulk of Giovanni families, Harbingers and other direct Cappadocian bloodlines, Aztec for Pisanob family, Voudoun for the Samedi Eastern for the Nagaraja and della Passaglia family and African for the Ghiberti family. They are short, basic things but it can give you a good idea on things.

And it does further remind me that it's often forgotten that the Giovanni are more than just Italian gangsters and necromancers. They're a global syndicate of gangsters and necromancers.

[Saturno]

If I was the ST I'd be fine with that process. It's a typical Necromancer approach. Though I would have probably had them make some persuasion rolls when it comes to convincing the wraith unless their roleplaying and/or arguments were good.

Yes, thank you. This was mainly what I wanted to know. Yes, the roleplaying was pretty nice but I furthermore requested her to do a persuasion roll. I just wasn't sure if Compel Spirit was a required thing to use. I always figured it was something you could use to facilitate the process. Like the difference between persuading a mortal via arguments versus Dominating him.

Rites of the Blood is something I read and I found it useful. It just didn't answer my question concerning the general process.
The method our player uses for summoning a wraith was a bit improvised last session and will probably get fleshed out for the next session. Probably something along the lines of historical Greek necromancy with a hint of orphic mysteries and neoplatonism. Her sire is pretty much a relict.

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Yes, thank you. This was mainly what I wanted to know. Yes, the roleplaying was pretty nice but I furthermore requested her to do a persuasion roll. I just wasn't sure if Compel Spirit was a required thing to use. I always figured it was something you could use to facilitate the process. Like the difference between persuading a mortal via arguments versus Dominating him.

No, Compel Spirit isn't required. It makes things easier, especially when dealing with a more unwilling spook but it isn't necessary. The right sales pitch can get most spooks on board at least for an initial thing. Longer term work is a different matter and will probably require more.

[CTPhipps]

CULTS OF THE BLOOD GODS is now available via PDF to its backers.

Congrats everyone!

[MyWifeIsScary]

Did they keep the nod to the Witches of echidna in?

[CTPhipps]

Did they keep the nod to the Witches of echidna in?

I haven't read it but they're canon either way so why shouldn't they?

[MyWifeIsScary]

Well it'd be nice if the whole trinity of Set shtick wasn't legitimized. The witches make a nice bloodline. But If they must be canon it'd be much better for anyone who actually cares about the clan to consign the trinity and the witch's role in it as a combination of maliciously contrived alt-history and delusions of granduer. Objectively speaking Settite sorcery is canonically derived from the ritual high-magic of the Priest class of ancient egypt; it's not a thing for 'witches' and it's not greek, as the witches of echidna strongly imply. I also question how the Setites tolerated an openly heretical bloodline for so long, but I suppose they got Set's work done in the end.

DAV20 should be acknowledged for what it is; a bunch of freelance writers trying out some fun ideas. Some of it works. Some of it doesn't. The witches of echidna and their trinity are something that doesn't work. But I take it from your tone it's not something you'd like to discuss. Which is strange, because given how much V5 has retconned, retconning the WoE out should be one of the smaller issues.

[CTPhipps]

Well it'd be nice if the whole trinity of Set shtick wasn't legitimized. The witches make a nice bloodline. But If they must be canon it'd be much better for anyone who actually cares about the clan to consign the trinity and the witch's role in it as a combination of maliciously contrived alt-history and delusions of granduer. Objectively speaking Settite sorcery is canonically derived from the ritual high-magic of the Priest class of ancient egypt; it's not a thing for 'witches' and it's not greek, as the witches of echidna strongly imply. I also question how the Setites tolerated an openly heretical bloodline for so long, but I suppose they got Set's work done in the end.

DAV20 should be acknowledged for what it is; a bunch of freelance writers trying out some fun ideas. Some of it works. Some of it doesn't. The witches of echidna and their trinity are something that doesn't work. But I take it from your tone it's not something you'd like to discuss. Which is strange, because given how much V5 has retconned, retconning the WoE out should be one of the smaller issues.

Eh, part of what makes Cults of the Blood Gods good is that a bunch of the cults are objectively wrong about huge numbers of things and get called out on it but that doesn't prevent their believers from believing it.

One of the cults is an Ancestor Worshiping cult of vampire fanatics that commit human sacrifices and offer up regular blood donations to the vampire god Eilos. The vampires of London are all certain that it's some sort of ancient they haven't heard of and are careful about disrupting its activities despite the fact that they are endangering the Masquerade.

The sect's truth? There is no Eilos and it's a front for the Second Inquisition who have put together enough vampire weirdness to assume this is how ancient vampires operate.

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Eh, part of what makes Cults of the Blood Gods good is that a bunch of the cults are objectively wrong about huge numbers of things and get called out on it but that doesn't prevent their believers from believing it.

One of the cults is an Ancestor Worshiping cult of vampire fanatics that commit human sacrifices and offer up regular blood donations to the vampire god Eilos. The vampires of London are all certain that it's some sort of ancient they haven't heard of and are careful about disrupting its activities despite the fact that they are endangering the Masquerade.

The sect's truth? There is no Eilos and it's a front for the Second Inquisition who have put together enough vampire weirdness to assume this is how ancient vampires operate.

Yeah, it bares keeping in mind that just because a group believes something to be true doesn't actually make it true. Kindred have a lot varied beliefs that are often incompatible from each other and that's not even getting into groups that are founded by Elders intentionally lying to their followers.