Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Cults of the Blood Gods discussion thread

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    if I understand correctly, MWIS has a problem with successful witches, or any other subgroup that is successful because their success undermines the main group

    the same way Phipps doesn't like a successful Sabbat, because it undermines the Camarilla/Anarchs


    -

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
      if I understand correctly, MWIS has a problem with successful witches, or any other subgroup that is successful because their success undermines the main group

      the same way Phipps doesn't like a successful Sabbat, because it undermines the Camarilla/Anarchs
      It depends on how you define successful Sabbat. I quite like the Sabbat for many of the same reasons I love Blood Cults and Anarchs. I feel like their constant infighting, failures of ideology, and so on make them more interesting, though.

      I also feel like they should have less crossover with the Camarilla and Anarchs' things.

      The Anarchs seek a different kind of Kindred society than the Camarilla. The Sabbat is one answer.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

      Comment


      • #63
        That's true for my views on House Carna, but for WoE it's quite a poor simplification; It's not just that the WoE are successful (actually I wouldn't care at all if they were very successful in the right conditions). It's that the WoE deliberately undermine the Setites; they have opposing beliefs, and have they have grossly misappropriated several aspects that belong to the setites.

        WoE are portrayed like they've taken the thaumaturgical roll from the Priests: That's an attack on the priests, and also a horrible misunderstanding of how Setite magic is supposed to work. Priests cast high magic (Larp as a priest, beseech gods, you're playing a DnD Cleric if you wanna dumb it down) , witches cast 'low' magic (ask the spirits for dirty favours; make your boss ill or poison your husband; you're playing a DnD warlock or a Hag) . To have priests, with their own noble magics, stoop to rely on witches is highly out of character.

        WoE believe in stuff that's clearly heresy to orthadox setites. Their writeup makes it sound like they're outright hostile to Set. And yet we're supposed to believe they've got along for thousands of years? They're a Bahari cult (There's a feminist angle here, why? Again; Egyptians had male and female priests. The Setites are hardly an oppressive clan. If the Priest Caste was called something gender neutral, this bloodline would never have been written like this. )

        I must stress this:
        I like the weakness, I like the in-clan disciplines. They have the makings of a good bloodline. I don't actually mind the Bahari angle.. when it's not like this.

        If they were a completely different sect I'd be totally fine with them. Happy even. But they're not. They exist because... Eh I can't write this. It has me question the writer too much and we can't do that here. But in writing the WoE, someone wanted an enemy, and someone has made the Settites into something they are not, without even bothering to nuke their chantry.

        They are something the Settites would never accept, and can never accept. They're not the same bloodline, they have completely different beliefs. They should not be lumped together. I wouldn't care at all if the WoE were just as powerful as the main Settite clan, I care that someone's improperly smashing them together.
        Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 11-18-2020, 02:53 PM.


        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

        Comment


        • #64
          EH, the Setites are a cult too. The Orthodox ones are also objectively wrong about their god since Set's reaction in Gehenna to awakening?

          MURDER THEM ALL.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            That's true for my views on House Carna, but for WoE it's quite a poor simplification; It's not just that the WoE are successful (actually I wouldn't care at all if they were very successful in the right conditions). It's that the WoE deliberately undermine the Setites; they have opposing beliefs, and have they have grossly misappropriated several aspects that belong to the setites.

            WoE are portrayed like they've taken the thaumaturgical roll from the Priests: That's an attack on the priests, and also a horrible misunderstanding of how Setite magic is supposed to work. Priests cast high magic (Larp as a priest, beseech gods, you're playing a DnD Cleric if you wanna dumb it down) , witches cast 'low' magic (ask the spirits for dirty favours; make your boss ill or poison your husband; you're playing a DnD warlock or a Hag) . To have priests, with their own noble magics, stoop to rely on witches is highly out of character.
            It does seem as if whenever the word "witch" is invoked you have a serious problem with the group. That your stated problems are superficially different for each group doesn't really align well with you basically having the same problems with both - you have very rigid ideas of what their magical practices must be like and don't like that in both cases their in-game lore doesn't support that. Or insist against the in-game lore that it must align with your interpretation.

            This makes the criticisms hard to accept because they're contrary to what we have in the material, which is descriptive rather than prescriptive.

            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            WoE believe in stuff that's clearly heresy to orthadox setites. Their writeup makes it sound like they're outright hostile to Set. And yet we're supposed to believe they've got along for thousands of years? They're a Bahari cult (There's a feminist angle here, why? Again; Egyptians had male and female priests. The Setites are hardly an oppressive clan. If the Priest Caste was called something gender neutral, this bloodline would never have been written like this. )
            This is a weird digression - woman-oriented doesn't mean "feminist," but this is also a common thread with your objections to Carna, despite them not being feminist either.

            I want to say here that I don't think you're arguing in bad faith at all, I just think that rigidly applying these definitions to these particular groups doesn't closely match the text, and if the rigid definitions are set aside, they're both fine. But it is interesting that your approach to women-only or woman-focused groups in the WoD always comes away with these very restrictive definitions that result, ultimately, in unpleasantness, and I'd suggest maybe having a closer look at that tendency and working out why this is a common thread.

            To address your definition of witchcraft: I'd argue that a strict delineation in high magic and low magic practices doesn't really work in Vampire in this way, and that blood magic in general drags all of the associated practices down to some degree. Nothing prevents a witch of echidna from learning high Kemetic magic, there's no law of physics demanding they only do animal sacrifices or whatever. Stuff changes over time, and given that the Setites are now the Ministry, and the Ministry is not strictly focused on Set, there's no need to worry about any possible "heresy," as the clan is now more of a big tent.
            Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 11-18-2020, 09:44 PM.

            Comment


            • #66
              So how about that Cults of the Blood Gods content!


              Matthew Dawkins
              In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


              Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
              Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

              Comment


              • #67
                Haven't finished reading through it yet, though not a major fan of V5 overall so its unlikely to be a positive opinion especially with what I've read of 'the Family Reunion' so far. To tell the truth I think I can't really take vampires + religion seriously*, too many Camarilla chronicles back in the day when they were predominantly secular.

                But it does seem to be quite well written, even if the material is not my cup of tea.


                *Or humans + religion really either if truth be told, too many run ins with high control fundamentalist groups.
                Last edited by Damian May; 11-19-2020, 05:25 AM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

                  It does seem as if whenever the word "witch" is invoked you have a serious problem with the group. That your stated problems are superficially different for each group doesn't really align well with you basically having the same problems with both - you have very rigid ideas of what their magical practices must be like and don't like that in both cases their in-game lore doesn't support that. Or insist against the in-game lore that it must align with your interpretation.

                  This makes the criticisms hard to accept because they're contrary to what we have in the material, which is descriptive rather than prescriptive.
                  Consider for a moment, that your arguing with a Settite, who genuinely believes In Set, and the religion, and the Holy magic she practices. How can you possibly convince her that the Witches of Echidna are possibly a good idea and were certainly part of a Trinity that her bloodline used to respect and apparently rely on, despite opposing beliefs and despite witch beligerence and despite the witches casting the 'low magic' your tradition is so above?

                  To address your definition of witchcraft: I'd argue that a strict delineation in high magic and low magic practices doesn't really work in Vampire in this way, and that blood magic in general drags all of the associated practices down to some degree. Nothing prevents a witch of echidna from learning high Kemetic magic, there's no law of physics demanding they only do animal sacrifices or whatever. Stuff changes over time, and given that the Setites are now the Ministry, and the Ministry is not strictly focused on Set, there's no need to worry about any possible "heresy," as the clan is now more of a big tent.
                  Look, I get that not everyone wants to roleplay a wizard who thinks they've got the secrets of the universe in their hand, but that doesn't mean we should shit on people that like that kind of thing. Lots of people play roleplaying games because they enjoy the clash of ideas and the strange mindsets they can get themselves into. You shouldn't erase that just because you're not interested in it
                  (also, if we go by the writing of the other editions, it's extremely difficult to pick up a new practice for magic. It's not like you're a chef who has been using ovens all your career and suddenly you're introduced to a microwave. It's more akin to "Christ has granted you miracles for being so faithful" and then someone comes up and displays that you can cast more miracles if you'd just embrace the power of neptune or take up contracts with Djinn before consuming a lot of drugs" )

                  Also the Ministry/Church seperation would literally have my Settite characters trying to bring the Followers back, burning heretics on both sides of the isle.


                  Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                  There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I figured the Witches of Echidna were just another facet of White Wolf doing a lean toward vampire’s having something to do with Ancient Greece. Typhon, Helena, Menele, Dracon, the True Brujah and Temporis... All these and some more definitely related to Greece.

                    Back to topic. I like what I've read of Cults so far. I also like how the Ministry and orthodox are implied to not be as at odds as the outside thinks they are.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Damian May View Post
                      Haven't finished reading through it yet, though not a major fan of V5 overall so its unlikely to be a positive opinion especially with what I've read of 'the Family Reunion' so far. To tell the truth I think I can't really take vampires + religion seriously*, too many Camarilla chronicles back in the day when they were predominantly secular.
                      Whenever people say the Camarilla was secular, all I can think of is Elysium where it said that they were riddled with Gehenna Cults.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        Whenever people say the Camarilla was secular, all I can think of is Elysium where it said that they were riddled with Gehenna Cults.
                        But the Camarilla as an entitly is still secular, even in the context of V5. Before, State suppresed church, now church is still seperate from state. Noddism hasn't become state religion or anything like that. It's just that the Camarilla has decided religious tomfoolery shouldn't be a persecutable offence. Probably because they wanted the Sabbat elders to join them for their world domination plan and had to make compromises. (also, I question as to how large and prevailant these cults were. Influentual? In many cities, but dominant? No. )


                        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          can the WoE be sabbat material?


                          -

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Some thoughts of Cults of the Blood Gods:

                            1. I really enjoy the Ashfinders cult because it is a great way of using the Thin Bloods. You can have the really rich and powerful ones as enemies to the Elders while you can have the boots on the ground eventually turn to hunting in order to satisfy their need for Ash. Eventually, the Gehenna War is going to stop being a source for their street drug.

                            I also like the inclusion of Doctor Mortius (DA DUM) from Milwaukee by Night since it actually potentially explains the in-use origin of Thin Blooded alchemy. That such a minor character from the book can be such a huge in-universe change is the kind of thing I like about V5.

                            2. I absolutely love the Church of Caine and am giving it double points for not being tied to the Sabbat. I've always been a fan of Noddism but I felt it was overly represented by the Sword of Caine. Reviving the classic Cainite Heresy was a smart move and having them really hate the Sabbat for misusing their teachings is something that I think is a potential source of very interesting plots in the future. I also like tying them to the Lure of Flames because that makes the magic of fire-walking and producing fireballs much more interesting.
                            I admit to bias because I play a Malkavian Priest of the Cainite heresy in my home games.

                            3. The Church of Set was in badly need of defining due to the ambiguous nature of the Ministry in previous books. Having them be the orthodox Set worshiping Howardian bad guys we know and love helps soften the sting for such a major reinvention of the characters. I also like that they're set up as antagonists for Ministry characters as well as the inherent hypocrisy of them being fundamentalist worshipers of a God of ChaosTM.

                            I will say that I think the Ministry itself needed a write-up in this book because I'm still not entirely certain what their theology is as there's been conflicting reports. Are they a rebranding, a polytheistic reinterpretation of Setite lore, or an outright revolt against Set monotheism.

                            I also love that this is carrying on a story from Beckett's Jyhad Diary.

                            4. The Church of Shalim is something that I'm going to be honest about, I'm not feeling it. I feel like the one presented in Chicago by Night was an interesting analysis of nihilism and human self-extinction through a religious lens. More Rust Coal than Nephandi. However, it seems the Cult of Shalim in actuality just a bunch of bwahahaha supervillains. I don't think it's a good substitute
                            for Moncada abyssal mysticism.

                            5. I love the Church of Mithras and I give massive credit to Matthew Dawkins for turning what was a mid-tier character into a pillar of the setting. I really regret we never got a Path of Mithras for the Sabbat or Black Hand. I think it'd be an interesting variant of the Path of Chivary or Honorable Accord. I like how it's also set up as a contrast to the Church of Set and how they're natural enemies. The idea its massively spread since Mithras' return is also cool.

                            Is Mithras just a vampire of the 4th generation or was he a god who was Embraced? Another character of mine is a Assamite Mithras worshiper.

                            6. The Nephilim are also extremely cool and basically embody everything awful about the Toreador. That's a thing we probably need more of with these cults. It's very easy to make a cult that contradicts the essentials of a clan but it's harder to take something already similar and make it interesting. I also like how they are tied to the history of the Byzantine Toreador but are unaware of what's going on in Byzantium.
                            Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-19-2020, 10:20 AM.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              I thought the Witches of Echidna died off already?


                              Jade Kingdom Warrior

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                How are people thinking of introducing the new Disciplines and Rituals to their Players or into their Chronicles? Are the new abilities mentioned in each section specific or secret to their respective cults/organizations, do certain Clans or affiliations have them already “unlocked” so to speak? The Shalimite Ceremonies and Ashfinder Alchemical Formulae seem to be specific practices to those unique groups, but I could see arguments for the other abilities introduced being open to learn in a regular fashion.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X