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  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I think that we really needed:

    * House Carna
    * The Ministry
    * The Web of Knives

    Those three are some pretty famous Blood Cults.

    I will say I love the Cult of Eilos and intend to run that one soon.

    -The Man just said they're not so culty. So you'll need to figure out a new watsonian reason for them to exist and have power next argument we have over them
    -Now they are a very lose collection of cults, many with only a bloodline in common, not a single cult.
    -Now they're just mainline Assamites now, but with a -I was trained from childhood to kill in my ninja village/compound- shtick. Loyalists (to Ur-Shulgi) are the cult worth writing about, especially with all the purges, but we've got enough about them from prior editions so there's not so much need for more. I suppose now the caste system got fucked so they could warrant a new write-up...


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    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
      Beckett's Jyhad Diary implies that probably a third of Cappadocias is in the True Vessel.

      Not just his blood.

      So the Specter Cappadocias is destroyed and so is Augustus' portion but there's still a bit left of the Antediluvian's soul.
      Actually Cappadocious' plot as presented in the Giovanni Chronicles specifically ensured that Augustus wouldn't devour his soul at all. Which is what led to Augustus hunting for the True Vessel and that Claudius Giovanni may have accidentally destroyed when he was ransacking Erciyes.

      And while BJD does bring the Vessel back around, even it doesn't actually confirm that it contains the last of Cappadocious' Blood, just that people believe it does.

      So at most, we have a piece of his soul lingering around in the True Vessel while the rest of his soul was destroyed at the end of the Giovanni Chronicles.

      Could he come back? A very slim chance, yes. Will he come back? Not likely. Does any of his childer want him back? Doesn't look like it. Even some of the old Cappadocians like Roger Camden don't think highly of their progenitor. Hell, Camden even describes Cappadocious as abusive and manic.


      Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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      • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post


        -The Man just said they're not so culty. So you'll need to figure out a new watsonian reason for them to exist and have power next argument we have over them
        -Now they are a very lose collection of cults, many with only a bloodline in common, not a single cult.
        -Now they're just mainline Assamites now, but with a -I was trained from childhood to kill in my ninja village/compound- shtick. Loyalists (to Ur-Shulgi) are the cult worth writing about, especially with all the purges, but we've got enough about them from prior editions so there's not so much need for more. I suppose now the caste system got fucked so they could warrant a new write-up...
        Their existence is explained quite clearly in the Carna loresheet. That you do not like it, impose your own headcanon about what it must be like, and then spend dozens of posts complaining that it's nonsense and accuse others of getting it wrong doesn't constitute an argument.

        Just do what the rest of us do when we don't like a thing - leave it out of your games.

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        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
          5. I do wonder why they chose the Hecata as an example. They're not exactly Greek mythology orientated and necromantic
          uh what

          Assuming 'Hecata' is from Hecate, she was a goddess very much associated with the necromantic. She was also very popular in the Clan's old stomping grounds of Anatolia, and maybe even originated from the region.

          Unless you meant the Cappadocians weren't very Greek, which is still off. We don't have much info about them before Cappadocius became an (un?)born-again Christian, but even with that you still get terms like 'Athanatos' for their undead servants in DA:V, and even as late as the Harbingers using Hades over Roman terms for their stuff in... LotB? Also their homeland was very much on the Greek side of the Greco-Roman divide. They might have gone with a Latinized name for Big C, but I'd be willing to bet his followers were more Orthodox than Catholic.

          Originally posted by trueann View Post
          Or, considering Cappadocius' connection with Anatolia, Lelwani for example.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lelwani
          Could have been fun.

          One of the weird things about the Cappadocians, though, is that as a Clan they were fairly young. Cappadocius claimed to not have Embraced until after he abandoned the Second City (or was hinted to have purged any childer he had from back then), and the Clan's lore always seemed to imply Kaymakli and Derinkuyu were pretty early in their history - and they only date back as far as the 8th century BC, far as we can tell. By that point Greeks (Mycenaean or otherwise) had been a fixture on the peninsula for over a millennium.

          Or maybe Cappadocius was just a huge grecophile before his obsession changed to eating God, and the survivors only remembered so many name changes back.

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          • Heketa and Heceta always have heavy and sharp consonants, giving them a slightly sinister sound. Hek-ah-tah.

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            • So Nate, one half of the old Vtm25 podcast did a review of Cults on his new project 2d10
              https://youtu.be/53eR7fSqAQM


              You've been playing around the magic that is black
              But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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              • Thanks, Dwight!

                I hope he does one for LTSRR!


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • I've noticed that there are a bunch of people who don't like the concept of the new Clan Hecata - that the Giovanni, Cappadocians, Harbingers of Skulls, Samedi, etc, could "bury the hatchet" and come together to form a brand new clan..... I'm curious as to why.


                  "Remember, remember, the Fifth of November, the Gunpowder Treason and Plot. I know of no reason why the Gunpowder Treason should ever be forgot."

                  -V for Vendetta

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                  • Originally posted by Japheth View Post
                    I've noticed that there are a bunch of people who don't like the concept of the new Clan Hecata - that the Giovanni, Cappadocians, Harbingers of Skulls, Samedi, etc, could "bury the hatchet" and come together to form a brand new clan..... I'm curious as to why.
                    Probably because they were all a bunch of Paranoid Psychos completely obsessed usually with Revenge, or in the Gio's case after they pogromed almost successfully they obsessed over a doomsday plot, and the Samedi were the only chill ones.

                    I mean I don't generally expect a bunch of psychos definded by hating each other to form a cohesive friendly family, but they could be having their strings Pulled, I mean who is Hecate? It could be interesting we will see.


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • Personally, I always thought that the Cappadocians should have been the Clan and the Giovanni a bloodline of that Clan. In a convoluted sort of way, that is what we have now. We have a general Death Clan and multiple bloodlines of it.

                      I’m not 100% on how the whole process seemed to have been brought about, but I never really saw a reason for the Giovanni and Harbringers to be enemies.

                      I kinda like the idea of Cappadocius himself still existing in some way and pulling all of the strings behind these events.

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                      • Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        Probably because they were all a bunch of Paranoid Psychos completely obsessed usually with Revenge, or in the Gio's case after they pogromed almost successfully they obsessed over a doomsday plot, and the Samedi were the only chill ones.

                        I mean I don't generally expect a bunch of psychos definded by hating each other to form a cohesive friendly family, but they could be having their strings Pulled, I mean who is Hecate? It could be interesting we will see.

                        Actually, I wasn't talking about in game people, but people IRL.


                        "Remember, remember, the Fifth of November, the Gunpowder Treason and Plot. I know of no reason why the Gunpowder Treason should ever be forgot."

                        -V for Vendetta

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                        • Originally posted by Japheth View Post
                          I've noticed that there are a bunch of people who don't like the concept of the new Clan Hecata - that the Giovanni, Cappadocians, Harbingers of Skulls, Samedi, etc, could "bury the hatchet" and come together to form a brand new clan..... I'm curious as to why.
                          My general opinion is that it makes a substantial change to the canon that isn't necessarily one people found to be organic. The Giovanni were already an immensely popular clan and largely considered one of the best for pure "horror" in a way that didn't involve the supernatural but equally good at it when it did. The Cappadocians are also very popular but merging the two of them after so much bad blood felt like a shocking swerve that put down a lot of Giovanni plots while ending most of the existing Harbinger metaplot. If you liked the Endless Night, it also killed that plot dead (mind you, the "plot to end the world" can only go on for so long until it does or not).

                          The merging of the Samedi and Nagaraja as well as removing their weaknesses feels like they're effectively "killing off" the Bloodlines and making them more generic.

                          Also add in the fact that Oblivion is controversial versus Necromancy and Obternation as separate disciplines.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • Personally, I like it. The Giovanni as a clan were the clan everyone loved to hate.... I'm excited for the future of the Hecata, and it was the main reason why I backed the project.


                            "Remember, remember, the Fifth of November, the Gunpowder Treason and Plot. I know of no reason why the Gunpowder Treason should ever be forgot."

                            -V for Vendetta

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                            • Originally posted by Japheth View Post


                              Actually, I wasn't talking about in game people, but people IRL.
                              Hoho I see. :P


                              It is a time for great deeds!

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                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                My general opinion is that it makes a substantial change to the canon that isn't necessarily one people found to be organic. The Giovanni were already an immensely popular clan and largely considered one of the best for pure "horror" in a way that didn't involve the supernatural but equally good at it when it did. The Cappadocians are also very popular but merging the two of them after so much bad blood felt like a shocking swerve that put down a lot of Giovanni plots while ending most of the existing Harbinger metaplot. If you liked the Endless Night, it also killed that plot dead (mind you, the "plot to end the world" can only go on for so long until it does or not).

                                The merging of the Samedi and Nagaraja as well as removing their weaknesses feels like they're effectively "killing off" the Bloodlines and making them more generic.

                                Also add in the fact that Oblivion is controversial versus Necromancy and Obternation as separate disciplines.
                                Sorry to wade in here with corrections, but:

                                - The Giovanni were never an "immensely popular clan". Quite the contrary, often polling around the bottom, near bloodlines (even in Paradox's research ahead of V5, which they published and presented at conventions such as the Grand Masquerade and World of Darkness: Berlin).
                                - The Cappadocians were popular but were largely a Dark Ages-only affair, limiting their visibility in the eyes of the casual fan. Given their treatment prior to V20 was to treat them almost entirely from the view of "this clan is doomed to feed the Giovanni", their play options were limited from the view of sourcebooks, though plenty of Storytellers expanded this. Plus, the prevailing fan perspective of the Cappadocians and Harbingers (as evidenced, anecdotally, above) was that they were just revenge-driven killers. They required more depth and nuance. The changes leading to the Hecata formation laced throughout V20 seemed appreciated, but interestingly, it feels like some fans can't accept the idea of Harbingers achieving their vengeance (which if dragged out would have left them as one-note) or forming an uneasy alliance with other betrayed necromancers.
                                - The Endless Night plot hasn't been completely killed and is still pursued by some Hecata. We don't go into it in great detail in Cults of the Blood Gods because frankly, it's a dead end plot metagame-wise (it only benefits one clan and will never be the course Vampire: The Masquerade follows) and this isn't Clanbook: Hecata.
                                - There are points throughout the book referring to Samedi having repulsive appearances (see p. 222 as an example) and Nagaraja consuming flesh (see p. 142 and p. 223), and their Bloodline Loresheets feed into this. They don't all have different Banes / weaknesses because they're all of the same clan, ostensibly.

                                I understand why older fans may dislike something that changes the metaplot they've come to enjoy over the years. It happens with every edition change of every game, especially when there are setting shifts. That said, I'm much happier we've changed the Clan of Death rather than keeping them on the same narrow track.

                                On the plus side, the number of people playing Hecata now, based again, anecdotally, on the sheer number of folks interested in this clan on the various WoD Discords and Facebook groups, is staggering. Maybe they're new fans, perhaps they're established fans interested in a clan that's been made more accessible, but from my view, the launch of the Hecata has been a success.


                                Matthew Dawkins
                                In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


                                Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
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