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  • (the top ten clans tend to have an interchangeable selection from the Camarilla seven as the top seven, followed by Lasombra and Tzimisce sometimes switching place, and number ten likewise switching around between the old independent clans, Caitiff, and the nebulous result of "non-core bloodline")


    Matthew Dawkins
    In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


    Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
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    • Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post

      Sorry to wade in here with corrections, but:
      I'm still waiting until I can purchase this on DTRPG but what you've said here is reassuring. I look forward to reading their entry.

      I'm still worried because the sheer weight of negative reactions, but also I've always liked doing stuff like keeping the Cappadocians around and just having lots of related bloodlines, including a not-clan Giovanni.

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      • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

        I'm still waiting until I can purchase this on DTRPG but what you've said here is reassuring. I look forward to reading their entry.

        I'm still worried because the sheer weight of negative reactions, but also I've always liked doing stuff like keeping the Cappadocians around and just having lots of related bloodlines, including a not-clan Giovanni.

        I'm glad you're reassured! Try not to let the negative reactions from some folks get to you and come to your own conclusions when you read the material.


        Matthew Dawkins
        In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


        Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
        Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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        • Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post

          Sorry to wade in here with corrections, but:

          - The Giovanni were never an "immensely popular clan". Quite the contrary, often polling around the bottom, near bloodlines (even in Paradox's research ahead of V5, which they published and presented at conventions such as the Grand Masquerade and World of Darkness: Berlin).
          - The Cappadocians were popular but were largely a Dark Ages-only affair, limiting their visibility in the eyes of the casual fan. Given their treatment prior to V20 was to treat them almost entirely from the view of "this clan is doomed to feed the Giovanni", their play options were limited from the view of sourcebooks, though plenty of Storytellers expanded this. Plus, the prevailing fan perspective of the Cappadocians and Harbingers (as evidenced, anecdotally, above) was that they were just revenge-driven killers. They required more depth and nuance. The changes leading to the Hecata formation laced throughout V20 seemed appreciated, but interestingly, it feels like some fans can't accept the idea of Harbingers achieving their vengeance (which if dragged out would have left them as one-note) or forming an uneasy alliance with other betrayed necromancers.
          - The Endless Night plot hasn't been completely killed and is still pursued by some Hecata. We don't go into it in great detail in Cults of the Blood Gods because frankly, it's a dead end plot metagame-wise (it only benefits one clan and will never be the course Vampire: The Masquerade follows) and this isn't Clanbook: Hecata.
          - There are points throughout the book referring to Samedi having repulsive appearances (see p. 222 as an example) and Nagaraja consuming flesh (see p. 142 and p. 223), and their Bloodline Loresheets feed into this. They don't all have different Banes / weaknesses because they're all of the same clan, ostensibly.

          I understand why older fans may dislike something that changes the metaplot they've come to enjoy over the years. It happens with every edition change of every game, especially when there are setting shifts. That said, I'm much happier we've changed the Clan of Death rather than keeping them on the same narrow track.

          On the plus side, the number of people playing Hecata now, based again, anecdotally, on the sheer number of folks interested in this clan on the various WoD Discords and Facebook groups, is staggering. Maybe they're new fans, perhaps they're established fans interested in a clan that's been made more accessible, but from my view, the launch of the Hecata has been a success.

          I always thought that the Giovanni were very popular based on threads, the amount of product published and reprinted, and I like them a lot. In the poll was it rank the clans or was it just pick a favorite? I would never want to BE a Giovanni, not liking the weakness or discipline spread, but I find them one of the most interesting and fun to read about. It's interesting to hear they are thought of as unpopular and don't rank in the top 10 with all that interesting history and conflict.

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          • Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post


            I always thought that the Giovanni were very popular based on threads, the amount of product published and reprinted, and I like them a lot. In the poll was it rank the clans or was it just pick a favorite? I would never want to BE a Giovanni, not liking the weakness or discipline spread, but I find them one of the most interesting and fun to read about. It's interesting to hear they are thought of as unpopular and don't rank in the top 10 with all that interesting history and conflict.

            Ranked in order of popularity. From what I recall of the poll on the World of Darkness website (and White Wolf of old did one way back when too, where the Giovanni were lower than the Ravnos), you could rank the clans in order of preference, with additional options for Caitiff, Thin-Bloods, and Other Bloodline.

            The Giovanni did indeed have the Giovanni Chronicles published surrounding them, but until the fourth one they were solidly antagonists. You played every clan but Giovanni until Nuova Malattia. Otherwise, if you consider every city sourcebook, every book focused on something relating to the Camarilla, Anarchs, or Sabbat, the Giovanni were largely omitted as not just an independent clan, but one without an antitribu.


            Matthew Dawkins
            In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


            Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
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            • The Giovanni have never been a popular clan namely because, by reading the books, you'd get the strong implication that the Giovanni want to be left alone in their little corner. You can't really do much for them. They've got this -Leave us alone and we'll leave you alone or else we'll fuck you up with ghosts- shtick that just makes them unpleasant to deal with, both from a character perspective and a player perspective.

              The 'Love to Hate' clans have always been the Tremere (in spades), the Toreador, the Ventrue, the Lasombra , maybe the Malkavians depending on the table. The Giovanni were always too peripheral and uninvolved in 90% of games. People seem to like Giovanni chronicles, but that's not most games.

              Despite CTPhipps 's false ideas on Giovanni popularity, it doesn't change the fact that the Hecata don't feel like an organic change to the setting, and they're still a standoff-ish group. They're a remarkably unsatisfying conclusion to the tension that's been built up surrounding the Giovanni. If anything The Gentleman Gamer , perhaps these statistics you're citing are simply the result of the Hecata forcefully absorbing bloodlines people actually liked to work with, like the Samedi or the Samedi or the other Samedi (I'm joking, most corpse-fucker bloodlines and subsidiary families are pretty cool, they're just not the Samedi) The Hecata haven't become any cooler except in that there's some variety in what you can play, something the other clans largely lack right now. (also not all the clans are in the game now so of course the Hecata are going to be in the top 10?)

              Your goal shouldn't be to make a clan win popularity contests in any case. It should be to better integrate stand-offish clans into the social framework of undead society so that people can have more fun playing either with or against the clan. The best thing you could do with the clan of death would be to cut off the problematic head and have the various families and bloodlines diffuse into mainstream kindred society.
              Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 11-23-2020, 01:46 PM.


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              • (also something else really helps the Hecata take more ground in 'popularity contests'; A lot of other clans have lost a good chunk of their appeal, either through mechanical changes or questionable narrative decisions. )


                Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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                • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  The Giovanni have never been a popular clan namely because, by reading the books, you'd get the strong implication that the Giovanni want to be left alone in their little corner. You can't really do much for them. They've got this -Leave us alone and we'll leave you alone or else we'll fuck you up with ghosts- shtick that just makes them unpleasant to deal with, both from a character perspective and a player perspective.

                  The 'Love to Hate' clans have always been the Tremere (in spades), the Toreador, the Ventrue, the Lasombra , maybe the Malkavians depending on the table. The Giovanni were always too peripheral and uninvolved in 90% of games. People seem to like Giovanni chronicles.

                  Despite CTPhipps 's false ideas on Giovanni popularity, it doesn't change the fact that the Hecata don't feel like an organic change to the setting, and they're still a standoff-ish group. They're a remarkably unsatisfying conclusion to the tension that's been built up surrounding the Giovanni. If anything The Gentleman Gamer , perhaps these statistics you're citing are simply the result of the Hecata forcefully absorbing bloodlines people actually liked to work with, like the Samedi or the Samedi or the other Samedi (I'm joking, most corpse-fucker bloodlines and subsidiary families are pretty cool, they're just not the Samedi) The Hecata haven't become any cooler except in that there's some variety in what you can play, something the other clans largely lack right now. (also not all the clans are in the game now so of course the Hecata are going to be in the top 10?)

                  Your goal shouldn't be to make a clan win popularity contests in any case. It should be to better integrate stand-offish clans into the social framework of undead society so that people can have more fun playing either with or against the clan. The best thing you could do with the clan of death would be to cut off the problematic head and have the various families and bloodlines diffuse into mainstream kindred society.

                  I'd argue that as a game designer, it's precisely my goal to make clans more popular, so people play vampires of that lineage and buy the book in which they appear, which appears to have been achieved. I disagree with your idea of "the best thing I could do", but definitely use them that way in your stories.


                  Matthew Dawkins
                  In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


                  Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
                  Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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                  • But the Hecata hasn't been made more accessible to normal play. Camarilla game? No Hecata. Anarch game? No Hecata. Sabbat game? Ahahaha kill me.
                    (also... I'm on board with a coup, but it doesn't change how off it is to find all death-clan bloodlines and that one corpse-fucking bloodline who Tremere'd a Setite have all been lazily amalgamated into a 'clan'. Talk about a wrestlemania plot)


                    Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                    There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                    • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                      But the Hecata hasn't been made more accessible to normal play. Camarilla game? No Hecata. Anarch game? No Hecata. Sabbat game? Ahahaha kill me.
                      (also... I'm on board with a coup, but it doesn't change how off it is to find all death-clan bloodlines and that one corpse-fucking bloodline who Tremere'd a Setite have all been lazily amalgamated into a 'clan'. Talk about a wrestlemania plot)

                      Please see pages 149 and 150 of Cults of the Blood Gods.


                      Matthew Dawkins
                      In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


                      Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
                      Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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                      • Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post


                        Please see pages 149 and 150 of Cults of the Blood Gods.
                        Is it possible to create a Samedi who doesn't have the Giovanni clan weakness? Or someone who has the Cappadocian weakness, not the Giovanni one? Which brings up the point, if it's the reunion of Cappadoicius' line, why the Giovanni weakness?
                        Last edited by Taggie; 11-23-2020, 12:49 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                          Is it possible to create a Samedi who doesn't have the Giovanni clan weakness? Or someone who has the Cappadocian weakness, not the Giovanni one?

                          Sure, just give them the Clan Nosferatu weakness.


                          Matthew Dawkins
                          In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


                          Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
                          Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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                          • Speaking as someone who did not back the Kickstarter, I'm optimistic because of what I have read and will probably get the book in PDF form.

                            Something which makes the Giovanni, Cappadocians and so on more playable and accessible is a good thing. Presenting cults is also a good thing. My own philosophy on these kinds of books is they should be akin to be a buffet table; a reasonable to large spread which provides options for players and ST to build the meal they want. And it sound like CotBG fits that bill.

                            I hope the Endless Night plot remains possible on some level for the same reason I hope stories about terrorists (or even the Sabbat) getting its hands on a nuke are possible; it would serve as a McGuffin to set the plot in motion and motivate the players. The players would not be the ones to do it, but might be the only ones in a position to stop it.
                            Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 11-23-2020, 01:03 PM.

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                            • Personally, I remember when the Cappadocians were first introduced as a playable clan in the original V:tDA. Their signature Discipline, Mortis, was basically a cut-and-paste of the Giovanni's VtM 2E Player's Guide Discipline Necromancy.

                              Fast forward to DAV, and the Cappadocians got a major retooling of Mortis (based on the retooling of Necromancy in VtM Revised). And this resulted in the Cappadocians being a much more cohesive and organic clan. They were much more fun to play, and became my favorite clan in Dark Ages Vampire. (Sidebar: I always wanted to have a chance to prevent the destruction of Clan Cappadocian, because I look at the Giovanni as being worse than the Tremere - I considered them metaphorically "pure" next to the incestuous Giovanni. Additionally, I loved it whenever the metaplot took the Giovanni down a peg or two. I celebrated it when the Harbingers of Skulls were introduced in the Revised Sabbat book, because I wanted the Giovanni to be eliminated.)

                              Fast forward to Beckett's Jyhad Diary. This book really laid it on thick that the Giovanni were getting their "just desserts," and the rightful stewards of the Clan of Death were about to recover their place in Kindred society.

                              Now we come to V5. While it quashed my hope that the Giovanni got their comeuppance, I am thrilled that the survivors of Clan Cappadocian are able to be playable in the new system.

                              I just wish that there was an easier way to translate previous Mortis/Necromancy Paths and Rituals to the new system.
                              Last edited by Japheth; 11-23-2020, 03:42 PM.


                              "Remember, remember, the Fifth of November, the Gunpowder Treason and Plot. I know of no reason why the Gunpowder Treason should ever be forgot."

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                              • Thanks for your clarification, Matthew Dawkins.

                                Personally, I always thought the Giovanni were very popular but that was just because they were awesome and horrific. Which is exactly how I like my undead.



                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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