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V20 Vampiric Excellencies

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  • V20 Vampiric Excellencies

    Hello there, so I have long been fascinated with the idea of taking the basic idea of the Disciplines of Celerity, Fortitude, and Potence and creating addtional forms for the three Mental and three Social Attributes. That is instead of dot powers each dot adds dice to the related Attribute roll, plus some other effects at 6+. So beyond the three standard physical disciplines I could see taking Heightened Senses and making it the Perception Excellency though I have no clue for the others, well mostly. I mean I could see hints of what they might do in say Dominate and Presence.

    But yeah, I like the idea that at the core magics the vampires can improve their base Attributes. That in time they took said ideas and created more advanced Disciplines and such while never loosing the core nine. Which can very easily be learned by any and all vampire naturally.

    So yeah, I was wondering if others might like the idea and might want to join with me in coming up with the potential methods of how to implement them rule wise in Vampire 20.

    Strength - Potence
    Dexterity - Celerity
    Stamina - Fortitude

    Perception -
    Intelligence -
    Wits -

    Charisma -
    Manipulation -
    Appearance -
    Last edited by LordHeru; 10-26-2020, 02:16 PM.

  • #2
    I'm pretty sure Presence, Dominate, Auspex and vicissitude cover Charisma, Intelligence, Perception and Appearance respectively


    You've been playing around the magic that is black
    But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Dwight View Post
      I'm pretty sure Presence, Dominate, Auspex and vicissitude cover Charisma, Intelligence, Perception and Appearance respectively
      Interesting.

      So a part of me thought "no fair" because these have powers and are not just generic things but the more I think of it, yeah, I can totally see how they basically do represent the core nature of vampires. Though I would put Dominate as Manipulation and not Intelligence. Also while I hadn't even thought of Vicissitude as Appearance I do actually like it, though, upon thinking maybe Protean could be the base excellency and Vicissitude could be like an extension ability.

      That all said, these do seem a good way to do it, without having to create six new disciplines from scratch. hehe
      Last edited by LordHeru; 10-24-2020, 02:38 PM.

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      • #4
        Obfuscate seems appropriate as a match for Wits.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
          Obfuscate seems appropriate as a match for Wits.
          Hmm. Yeah. I can see that. Obfuscate is very much something that could be considered a core vampiric element and such it fits. Also, I looked at the powers in Obfuscate and they seem Wits based so that adds more of a connection. But even more the ability to basically not be there even when there is such a Wits thing.

          ----

          So hmm, a thought. I think it might be cool if all the above Excellency Disciplines naturally added die to their associated Attribute when making a roll. This is 'free' in the sense no blood needs to be spent but its not in the sense that the Discipline itself needs to be bought.

          Like upon getting access to the various Excellency Disciplines one gets to add this feature - For each dot in the Excellency Discipline, add one die to all related Attribute-based dice pools. Spend one blood point to turn those dice into automatic successes.

          And yeah, I know, this empowers vampires even more. But you know what, I am totally fine with that power growth. In fact I eagerly want it.
          Last edited by LordHeru; 10-24-2020, 02:48 PM.

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          • #6
            Auspex for All mental stats. all of tuem. perception, intelligence, wits: all auspex.

            The problem with a very specific intelligence discipline (and wits to a lesser extent) is that there is no impetus for the beast to develop such powers. potence or presence can help you feed or survive. a superior intellect does next to nothing for the Beast, at least in terms of immediate solutions. you can either bundle an intellegence discipline with something more broadly applicable...

            Thaumaturgy is not tied to the beast, but the soul. perhaps that's what you want for int?

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            • #7
              Make Charisma Animalism and Appearance Presence. (And maybe Intelligence Thaumaturgy?)


              “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her. She/her (I saw the Chief Technology Officer for a big company do this so I guess I’ll do it too).

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              • #8
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                Auspex for All mental stats. all of tuem. perception, intelligence, wits: all auspex.

                The problem with a very specific intelligence discipline (and wits to a lesser extent) is that there is no impetus for the beast to develop such powers. potence or presence can help you feed or survive. a superior intellect does next to nothing for the Beast, at least in terms of immediate solutions. you can either bundle an intellegence discipline with something more broadly applicable...

                Thaumaturgy is not tied to the beast, but the soul. perhaps that's what you want for int?
                I am not really sure how Auspex is Intelligence and Wits. I definitely see it as Perception, as that is what is all about. That said, while I put Obfuscate as a Wits power I can also see it might not entirely fitting.

                I do agree that boosting Intelligence on a pure level is not entirely an easy Discipline to develop. That said I do think there probably is a way, one just has to think on it. I mean the Beast as intelligent predator could work. The Beast doesn't have to be 'stupid' it can be tactical and strategic and all about planning ahead.

                I don't know what that would be, so I will think more on it.

                Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                Make Charisma Animalism and Appearance Presence. (And maybe Intelligence Thaumaturgy?)
                Can I ask why you think this though? Because I really like the idea of the shapeshifting or body manipulation power (that is Protean or Vicissitude) as the Appearance power.

                Also, on Animalism, while speaking to animals is definitely a central power I don't really think its an Excellency Discipline.

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                • #9
                  Animalism is controlling the beast though. Speaking to animals is just the most basic application. Keeping the beast in check is not a bad fit for intellect.

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                  • #10
                    the auspex power of 'premonition' would relate to intellligence and wits.

                    auspex really expands the mind, not just the senses, when you think about it.

                    obfuscate is really just you taking advantage of everyone else having a weak mind.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
                      Animalism is controlling the beast though. Speaking to animals is just the most basic application. Keeping the beast in check is not a bad fit for intellect.
                      Except that is not really boosting one's intellect though, like what I am trying to go. That said, I do agree that speaking to the Beast is a perfect reason for why Animalism is a central power for vampires. I just don't see it as an Excellency Discipline.


                      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                      the auspex power of 'premonition' would relate to intellligence and wits.

                      auspex really expands the mind, not just the senses, when you think about it.

                      obfuscate is really just you taking advantage of everyone else having a weak mind.
                      I agree in part. Which is why I think I might make the first dot of Auspex (Heighted Senses) the basic Perception Excellency Discipline. I might then make the two dot Read the Soul the one dot power, and the Dementation two dot power Eyes of Chaos the two dot power. I could then find something else for Dementation, though really as is I am not sure I like that Discipline at all.

                      I could totally see the path being the Excellency as pure power then Auspex to improve senses and Obfuscate to hide. its like prerequistes without prerequistes.

                      -----------------

                      I guess at the core what I really wanted was there to be nine Excellency Disciplines that had no individual powers at the one to five dots but instead boosted the number of dice (or successes with a blood point spent) that a vampire could have in each attribute. Basically Potence, Fortitude, and Celerity for the others. That's it. That maybe the more expert disciplines build upon those nine base disciplines in an esoteric way.

                      I could still do this of course. I just need to come up with six names like the three above, some descriptive flavor, and then use the mechanics of say Potence.

                      You know, maybe I will do this. Hmm

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LordHeru View Post

                        I am not really sure how Auspex is Intelligence and Wits. I definitely see it as Perception, as that is what is all about. That said, while I put Obfuscate as a Wits power I can also see it might not entirely fitting.

                        I do agree that boosting Intelligence on a pure level is not entirely an easy Discipline to develop. That said I do think there probably is a way, one just has to think on it. I mean the Beast as intelligent predator could work. The Beast doesn't have to be 'stupid' it can be tactical and strategic and all about planning ahead.

                        I don't know what that would be, so I will think more on it.



                        Can I ask why you think this though? Because I really like the idea of the shapeshifting or body manipulation power (that is Protean or Vicissitude) as the Appearance power.

                        Also, on Animalism, while speaking to animals is definitely a central power I don't really think its an Excellency Discipline.
                        Because Appearance is about being beautiful and beauty is a key part of Presence.


                        “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her. She/her (I saw the Chief Technology Officer for a big company do this so I guess I’ll do it too).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Penelope View Post

                          Because Appearance is about being beautiful and beauty is a key part of Presence.
                          While I see what you mean its more about the manipulation of emotions and related things - which is Charisma in game terms. Its not really about how you look, but what you make people feel.

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                          • #14
                            Attributes are not precise things. Intelligence is not one single scale; Your mathmatical ability does not perfectly correlate with your memory or your ability to reason. Dexterity is composed of a lot of different factors: Hand eye co-ordination, reflexes, fine motor skills... Even for simple things like strength you've got different body parts and explosive vs...

                            So, celerity, being a time-manipulation discipline, should in some instances be added to wits. Potence, in making a lot of physical things easier, should effect dexterity and stamina in some instances. Fortitude, in negating hostile forces against you, should make balance rolls easier as the fool trying to push you is doing so with a lot less force than he would naturally impart against you... and balance rolls use dexterity (and potentially, I can see this useful in strength rolls as you pull yourself up the rope against the howling winds...) Presence can of course be used to manipulate....

                            So, trying to nail down each discipline to an attribute is a strange thing.

                            (also: Obfuscate is the best discipline for raising your appearance. Vicissitude's a rare freak surgery power)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              Attributes are not precise things. Intelligence is not one single scale; Your mathmatical ability does not perfectly correlate with your memory or your ability to reason. Dexterity is composed of a lot of different factors: Hand eye co-ordination, reflexes, fine motor skills... Even for simple things like strength you've got different body parts and explosive vs...

                              So, celerity, being a time-manipulation discipline, should in some instances be added to wits. Potence, in making a lot of physical things easier, should effect dexterity and stamina in some instances. Fortitude, in negating hostile forces against you, should make balance rolls easier as the fool trying to push you is doing so with a lot less force than he would naturally impart against you... and balance rolls use dexterity (and potentially, I can see this useful in strength rolls as you pull yourself up the rope against the howling winds...) Presence can of course be used to manipulate....

                              So, trying to nail down each discipline to an attribute is a strange thing.

                              (also: Obfuscate is the best discipline for raising your appearance. Vicissitude's a rare freak surgery power)
                              So I get what you are saying. In fact I hate how much I get what you are saying. lol

                              What I mean is, your right, yes. Unlike say in 1e and 2e Exalted where the Attributes and Abiliites are also stuff discussed in game as a sort of setting thing in Vampire, in the World of Darkness itself, they are purely mechanics rather than in-universe concepts.

                              That said though, rules wide Potence doesn't do what you say - it only effects Strength-based dice pools.

                              So yeah, I get what you are saying, and you are totally not wrong.

                              Buuut

                              And there is always a but.

                              I kind of like the idea that at the core, at the most essential power level, the vampires use their blood to improve their characteristics, their attributes. That from that initial set of capabilities (these nine core Excellency Disciplines) they found ways to twist, turn, and expand their magics to greater extents. Like they go from Celerity to Temporis, and they go from the Manipulation Excellency to Dominate, Animalism, and Spiritus for example.

                              I just kind of like this idea. I mean I know its a big house rule, well setting hack really, but I think its a cool one.

                              (Oh, I totally think Protean fits more Appearance then Vicissitude, for all taht I think I might change things and go back to the idea of the Excellency Disciplines not having distinct powers at each level.)

                              ---

                              So, as this is a fun little thought exercise, I was wondering if anyone had ideas for the names of the other six Excellency Disciplines. I can't call it Intelligence or Appearance because I want to keep the idea of how its Potence, Celerity, Fortitude.
                              Last edited by LordHeru; 10-26-2020, 12:58 PM.

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