Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Path of Harmony: original, Sins of Blood, or V20?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    The Revised write up IMO implies that not only did they take issue with some of the Sabbat's tactics, they got vocal about it. I think Revised dialed it back with Sins of the Blood, because in there it mentions some still reconcile their beliefs with Sect loyalty, just sticking as nomads.

    When looking at what calls for a Path roll, both Harmony and Feral Heart have sins at higher levels that make regular contact with Sabbat difficult at best. This is why I think it was them getting vocal. The vocal ones refused to compromise spirituality; the others said 'yeah, we'll shut up and adopt this other Path'.

    I'd have to look up the other Paths to be sure, but I think a Harmonist could get along well with his pack, provided there were no Catharists (which has always been described as the Path of Least Resistance, thus more Sabbat end up on it, and therefore would cause friction when you tell them to dial it back).

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
      If plain old Humanity does not make it impossible to be in the Sabbat -- this is the Revised stance, after all -- then how is the Path of Harmony somehow an even worse fit? It seems to me like the Revised version of Harmony has muddied the waters significantly, if this is what people take away from it. The original writeup for the Path of Harmony made it clear that although its followers were some of the most "humane" members of the Sabbat, they had zero compunctions with behavior that would make any vampire with Humanity experience a significant crisis. What was the number one sin, the entire basis for the original path? "Refusing to kill when it is important for your survival." Doesn't matter if it's your mortal parents or the family's pet dog, if it's down to you or them, they gotta go.
      we don't talk about what Revised did to the Sabbat..... But seriously, being on humanity, even revised humanity was a slide into wassail, get a path, perish, or become a wight. Harmony had similar problems, it's a well thought out path, just not for the Sabbat.
      Last edited by Taggie; 10-27-2020, 01:13 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by PJ123 View Post
        The Revised write up IMO implies that not only did they take issue with some of the Sabbat's tactics, they got vocal about it. I think Revised dialed it back with Sins of the Blood, because in there it mentions some still reconcile their beliefs with Sect loyalty, just sticking as nomads.
        you're right, it was the harmonists that caused the break out

        but the real reason was just that the devs wanted better paths but didn't want to retcon the previous one,
        so they improvised some half-baked excuse to justify harmony being gone (they do that every edition)


        -

        Comment


        • #19
          For the sake of clarity, here's the original Hierarchy of Sins for the 2nd Edition Path of Harmony.

          Originally posted by The Players Guide to the Sabbat, p. 95

          Path of Harmony Hierarchy of Sins
          10: Failing to spend at least two hours per night communing alone with nature
          9: Killing an animal for any reason other than survival
          8: Failing to hunt and drink blood whenever hungry (less than maximum Blood Points) and time permits
          7: Acting in an overly cruel manner
          6: Refusing to ride the wave as long as it is not detrimental to your own survival
          5: Killing a mortal for any reason other than survival
          4: Failing to provide safety for your loved ones and comrades
          3: Allowing yourself to act too human or too bestial
          2: Feeling guilty about something you needed to do
          1: Refusing to kill when it is important for your survival
          I'm curious where you see the inevitable slide to a rating of zero. It seems to me that as long as they remain in the Sabbat, Path of Harmony followers cannot fall below 2 or 1 because the fundamental sins on the path are also violations of core Sabbat virtues. Kill when necessary and don't feel guilty about it. Maybe you could make the argument that the level 5 sin makes it difficult to reach high levels on the Path of Harmony in the Sabbat, but it's not like every single Sabbat vampire has to kill mortals for the lulz. At any rate, levels 1-4 seem perfectly functional within the context of the Sabbat.
          Last edited by Elphilm; 10-27-2020, 02:05 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
            For the sake of clarity, here's the original Hierarchy of Sins for the 2nd Edition Path of Harmony.



            I'm curious where you see the inevitable slide to a rating of zero. It seems to me that as long as they remain in the Sabbat, Path of Harmony followers cannot fall below 2 or 1 because the fundamental sins on the path are also violations of core Sabbat virtues. Kill when necessary and don't feel guilty about it. Maybe you could make the argument that the level 5 sin makes it difficult to reach high levels on the Path of Harmony in the Sabbat, but it's not like every single Sabbat vampire has to kill mortals for the lulz. At any rate, levels 1-4 seem perfectly functional within the context of the Sabbat.
            It's 5, 7 and maybe 3 are possible issues, but really degeneration checks aren't that bad if you can explain why you did something and how it is consistent ( 4 and 2 seem most likely to provide cover here) it's more interesting than I remembered it being as well

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Taggie View Post

              It's 5, 7 and maybe 3 are possible issues, but really degeneration checks aren't that bad if you can explain why you did something and how it is consistent ( 4 and 2 seem most likely to provide cover here) it's more interesting than I remembered it being as well

              And even then there's considerable wiggle room in the subject of "killing for survival" - would executing a mortal to keep one's presence secret count or be a sin, just for a quick half-baked example? And what defines overly cruel manner?

              I can see some interesting debate and roleplay opportunities coming out of such dubious issues.
              Last edited by Baaldam; 10-27-2020, 06:05 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Yeah, I didn't like the destruction of the Harmonists. That said, I found it useful for one of my characters. I was in a campaign that began in the late fifties, then had a timeskip to modern times after several months of play.

                My story for what I did during the timeskip was, I had become an ecoterrorist, and a Sabbat pack of Harmonists had witnessed my efforts from a distance, efforts that were very similar to their own. So they recruited me for the Sabbat.

                I spent the years from the early sixties to the 1996 as a member of their pack, but then the Sabbat got sick of having preachy hippies in their sect and declared the Harmonists heretical. Me and my pack spent the ensuing years running from the very sect we'd fought for for decades. By the time the Sabbat collapsed, I was the only member of the pack still alive.

                Then I rejoined the coterie in modern times, having become extremely weary and disillusioned. The world is more polluted than ever, the Sabbat had proven as bad in its own way as the Camarilla, and the closest things to friends I had left was the coterie I was with when I was first embraced, a coterie I hadn't seen in sixty years.

                It was a cool campaign.

                Comment


                • #23
                  There's a flaw to the argument that the actions of other Sabbat will put you at odds with them because you're a harmonist. The path is focused on what you do, not what others do. It remains perfectly viable to be a Harmonist, maybe even more so in V5. Especially if those are the Sabbat who remained behind in the Americas as nomads and didn't march off to the Gehenna War. Harmonist make for a very playable group of Sabbat.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    The original Path sins was all about what you do; the Revised Path sins had some that included the word 'allowing', which would imply why they took issue with Sabbat tactics. Although, to be fair, there was description in the original Path that already hinted at issues of being a Harmonist with the Sabbat in constant Jyhad.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Dwight View Post
                      Imo harmony is terrible for a sabbat character, several of the sins are automatically broken by run of the mill sabbat activities
                      I agree that the original Path is terrible for a typical Sabbat member, but I think it's good anyway because its existence implies there are other types of Sabbat members. Second edition Sabbat was really diverse - the sect could easily have broken apart in a fourth civil war. I think Harmony was jettisoned in Revised specifically because it didn't fit with the unified Crusade sect theme of the metaplot. But I think it's perfectly valid to have a minority of Sabbat doing its own things and not participating in a lot of sect activities. Especially for some nomad Loyalist packs some of whose members I assume would be the primary examples of adherents of the Path.

                      I think the Loyalists and nomad packs tend not to be appreciated because of an overemphasis on the Lasombra and Tzimisce and their centralist tendencies within the Sabbat.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        how is it that the Feral Heart team (who were ex-harmonists) managed to turn against the Harmonists when they were supposedly vinculumed to one another?


                        -

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Probably because the Feral Hearts were not in the same packs? We know Revised said Harmony was essentially gone, but Sins of Blood (Revised era sourcebook) mentioned some were still in nomad packs, reconciling beliefs with Sect loyalty. Still, a majority (being somewhat relative) would be in Camarilla domains.

                          I still find it funny that Feral Heart has a sin against sticking around fire unless to slay an enemy. It makes sense for the Path, but still makes it hard to progress high and hang out with your Sabbat buddies.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Just had another thought: the Black Hand is way more reserved than the rank and file Sabbat. I could see Harmonists as scouts and spies, especially because they could blend into Camarilla society easier. As long as they weren't given missions of destruction and torture, might make interesting stories how some found refuge in the arms of Caine's Chosen.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by PJ123 View Post

                              I still find it funny that Feral Heart has a sin against sticking around fire unless to slay an enemy. It makes sense for the Path, but still makes it hard to progress high and hang out with your Sabbat buddies.
                              as far as Revised is concerned, all paths are challenging to follow in the sabbat,
                              and he pack becomes more of a distraction the higher you go on a path (assuming they don't share your world view)

                              in mexico by night, it says that pathists tend to isolate themselves from the pack and sabbat politics,

                              supposedly, the same was true in 2nd ed, but the paths were more lenient back then, and sabbat politics were almost non-existent


                              -

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                In all likelyhood, some prominent Harmonists pissed off the leadership, possibly by objecting to alliances with Pentex and that sort of thing. Those high-level Harmonists were purged under the guise of a heresy purge, but once they were gone, the leadership ceased to really give a damn about the supposed "heresy". Low level Harmonists were ignored so long as they kept their mouths shut and maybe paid momentary lip-service to switching to "Feral Heart". No one with real power cares in the slightest if some lowbie likes to hug a tree now and again.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X