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Reconciling the Ravnos, KotE and Cainite cosmologies

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  • #16
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Rites of the blood was a solid pre-v5 book written by people who understood magic in the WoD. There was nothing edgy or V5 about it. In fact, it was quite antithetical to v5: The magic worked according to established systems and was more about working miracles than a one-note edgy blood bending vision for the discipline in v5. it gave us some metaplot concerning the evolution of magic: what the anarchs have come up with in the past hundred years, that the tremere didn't wipe out all the old magics.... it emphasized differences between schools of magic.... it was a good addition to Blood sacrifice and the other thaumaturgy companions... in some ways worse, in some ways more awesome: get it.
    It's no cults of the 'blood gods': it's one of the best v20 books. 9/10.
    You know Cults of Blood Gods explicitly links Kindred religion with Blood Sorcery, emphasizing the latter is a magical/spiritual force.

    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.


    • #17
      So you're saying sorcery is magic and spiritual?

      I guess it is. Thanks man. That's enlightening. I only read an old manuscript that seemed somewhat... anemic . I take it you've got a much newer version than what I read. The thing I read seemed very unfinished; no pictures, a nod to the toxic witches of echidna, no paths, and the distinct feeling that the cults were the main focus and that magic merely exists to make these cults cooler. But if you've got a more up-to-date version...

      I'm sorry. I'll stop. we're off topic anyway. Just... why are you doing this to me? It's like... I've read CotBG. I skipped over a few bits, but I've 'read' CotBG. I know what it says. I know what it means to say. I've formed my opinion of it. Objectively speaking It's very clear that the new approach to thaumaturgy is fundamentally different to that of the old; hell I've started using 'thaumaturgy' more instead of 'Blood sorcery in my own writings because they now have clearly different connotations. . That doesn't change because you like the religions in CotBG. That's like saying the Star Wars sequel trilogy is objectively good and faithful to the original material because of Adam Driver's widely praised performance and the presence of old actors. If anything the religious parts of CotBG are aggravating because people clearly either don't understand or don't want to work with the philosophies and paradigms that should be standing as pillars for magic and the communities surrounding magic and indeed the game mechanics of magic. If anything, the largest thing CotBG wants to enlighten me with is a condescending message of 'cults are bad'.

      Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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      • #18
        So I agree with what those ahead of me such as CTPhepps and Black Fox have said, but I’ll see if I can’t add some spice of my own to the mix and maybe help out.

        I honestly feel that by the time of revised ground had already been laid to highlight the similarities but that aside, lemme kinda set out my own thoughts.

        So first of all, Multi-Resonance Layered Reality, I’ve talked about it before so I won’t get into it here unless someone has questions. Just keep the concept in mind.

        Next we have the Ravnos and Kuei-Jin (I prefer to call them Wan Kuei and shall be doing so from this point onward). The Ravnos have been established as the VtM vampires of the Indian sub-continent and the Wan Kuei as vampiric entities (KotE/Lotus) of Asia but particularly the Middle Kingdom (traditional China). The first thing to address, as it is fundamental, is the distinction between these two varieties of vampiric entity.

        The vampires of Masquerade & Lotus are not the same and so I do not treat them as synonymously as WoD canon does. They are distinct entities, similar only in some conceptually similar traits associated with vampirism. Masquerade vampires are cursed blood-thirsty revenants. Lotus vampires are damned souls hungering for the spiritual essence of living humans. Similar yet not the same.

        In this regard, I typically consider both of these styles of entities to exist globally. Masquerade vampires arise in their cursed lineages but have followed human migration around the world (and met pre-existing kindred of unknown bloodlines in some of these remote places). Lotus vampires are brought about on account of certain spiritual conditions which cause a continuous cycle of incarnation and reincarnation due to the sin of their origins. In the East they may be called Wan Kuei or the Ten Thousand Immortals while in the west they may be called Nephilim or Fallen Heroes or Revenants and they’ve been called simply Damned Souls everywhere they appear.

        So naturally both sets of groups develop mystical and historical traditions that are designed to both suit and explain their nature or to delve into the mystery of their existence. These are guaranteed to be extremely variable even if currently the Caine Account and the Ten Thousand Immortals Account are the most popular on either side.

        Regardless these entities, by my estimation, co-exist in a similar fashion that we already know the vampires do with changing breeds or magi. Acknowledged if the ST wishes for it, ignored if the ST wishes for it; yet an option. Any interaction is a matter for the table.

        Specifically though, the Ravnos and the Wan Kuei of the Middle Kingdom. Historically they both have been at war for a number of historical and philosophical reasons. They each view the other as arrogant tyrants and rapacious predators and they strive to defend their herds and territory from the other. The possibility they could co-exist is just as likely as with any other splat but regardless they both have strong views of the other. The Ravnos see the other as damned souls which make mockery of their dharma through their cursed existences and seek to assault the souls of mortals. The Wan Kuei see the others as wretched fiends who manipulate mortals with illusion and deceit to guide them away from enlightenment so they might feed the vampiric thirst.

        Neither side is necessarily wrong.