Why do Sabbat support the Book of Nod?

[PJ123]

Seriously. In game, all the scholars say it was written by Elders and Antediluvians. The Sabbat is supposed to be fighting those. Why would you believe anything they wrote? Besides the usual hypocrisy thing we find among the Sects.

I'd like to see this being an avenue for why the Church of Caine broke off in V5.

[CTPhipps]

Seriously. In game, all the scholars say it was written by Elders and Antediluvians. The Sabbat is supposed to be fighting those. Why would you believe anything they wrote? Besides the usual hypocrisy thing we find among the Sects.

I'd like to see this being an avenue for why the Church of Caine broke off in V5.

1. The Sabbat believe it's true. The Sabbat believe the Camarilla denies the Book of Nod because it's true. They also very much believe in the Antediluvians, they just believe they need to be destroyed. Until V5, possessing the Book of Nod was a punishable offense in the Camarilla and they deied the existence of Gehenna and the Antediluvians. The Sabbat got a lot of recruits by being the people who DID believe in it.

2. The modern Book of Nod is less like the Bible and more like Grimms Fairy Tales or Arabian Nights. Its a collection of vampiric folklore as collected by Aristotle de Laurent. Some of it written down, some of it not. There's no telling if there's ever been an original book before the Ericyne Fragments but its Kindred folklore that most clans have a variant of. If you want to know who Aristotle de Laurent is, basically assume he's the Bulfinch of the Vampire World. Before him, there was no single Book of Nod to read.

3. The Church of Caine isn't a Sabbat breakway sect. It's the original Cainite Hersey from the Dark Ages being revived in the Modern Era. It is the dire enemy of the Sabbat who want to see every member of it exterminated. The Sabbat murdered its members and stole its Noddist lore during the Dark Ages. They had their own Noddist books prior to Artistotle and the Sabbat looted them as well as their rituals. Either some surviving members finally got out of torpor or some guys found their old stuff and revived the religion or both. There's a few Sabbat defectors but they view the Sabbat as their version of ISIS.

[Lian]

Because the Sabbat is just another part of the Jyhad no matter how much they are in denial? The sabbat are no more let in on the "real truth" than your average camarillian denying surving Antedeluvians or cycles of Gehenna. They just think they are. No one is let in on the "Real truth" everyone is being manipulated. Its all lies.

[Pleiades]

Seriously. In game, all the scholars say it was written by Elders and Antediluvians. The Sabbat is supposed to be fighting those. Why would you believe anything they wrote? Besides the usual hypocrisy thing we find among the Sects.

"hypocrisy" gotta be the most overused word in this god forsaken forum

the sabbat do not accept the book of nod, or at least they wouldn't if they had the full version (which they don't, which is why they have scholars and templars tasked with searching for noddist lore)

in Montreal (Revised), scholars had brought a fragment of the original book of nod,
the scholars hid it due to the controversial content of the fragment,
later, when the fragment was revealed to the sabbat, half the city went to chaos

[Baaldam]

"hypocrisy" gotta be the most overused word in this god forsaken forum

the sabbat do not accept the book of nod, or at least they wouldn't if they had the full version (which they don't, which is why they have scholars and templars tasked with searching for noddist lore)

in Montreal (Revised), scholars had brought a fragment of the original book of nod,
the scholars hid it due to the controversial content of the fragment,
later, when the fragment was revealed to the sabbat, half the city went to chaos

Oh, now i'm curious, where do i find this fragment's plotline and contents?

[CTPhipps]

The Book of Nod as published by Aristotle de Laurent has Caine say that diablerie is the most horrific evil thing that any Kindred can do and will bring his ultimate wrath.

So, it's hilarious to assume the Sabbat (Especially the Path of Caine ones) going, "Well, he's not speaking literally, obviously. It's more that diablerie is a horrific evil that will be punished when OTHER vampires than us do it."

[Pleiades]

Oh, now i'm curious, where do i find this fragment's plotline and contents?

Nights of Prophecy, I think

[Baaldam]

Nights of Prophecy, I think

Ah, the terrible, terrible book. Should have known.

Going to look for that anyway. Thanks.

1. The Sabbat believe it's true. The Sabbat believe the Camarilla denies the Book of Nod because it's true. They also very much believe in the Antediluvians, they just believe they need to be destroyed. Until V5, possessing the Book of Nod was a punishable offense in the Camarilla and they deied the existence of Gehenna and the Antediluvians. The Sabbat got a lot of recruits by being the people who DID believe in it.

Indeed, though in my games it's kind of a "smoking pot" offense, severity highly dependent on local law, authorities, who actually caught sight of you doing it and what social strata you are part of.

2. The modern Book of Nod is less like the Bible and more like Grimms Fairy Tales or Arabian Nights. Its a collection of vampiric folklore as collected by Aristotle de Laurent. Some of it written down, some of it not. There's no telling if there's ever been an original book before the Ericyne Fragments but its Kindred folklore that most clans have a variant of. If you want to know who Aristotle de Laurent is, basically assume he's the Bulfinch of the Vampire World. Before him, there was no single Book of Nod to read.

I do tend to consider there have been many other contemporarily less known works by the same name from previous author, much like Sun Tzu's text is far from the only one to be published under the title "Art of War" in the western world.

3. The Church of Caine isn't a Sabbat breakway sect. It's the original Cainite Hersey from the Dark Ages being revived in the Modern Era. It is the dire enemy of the Sabbat who want to see every member of it exterminated. The Sabbat murdered its members and stole its Noddist lore during the Dark Ages. They had their own Noddist books prior to Artistotle and the Sabbat looted them as well as their rituals. Either some surviving members finally got out of torpor or some guys found their old stuff and revived the religion or both. There's a few Sabbat defectors but they view the Sabbat as their version of ISIS.

- Cainite Hershey?!
- Cainite Jersey? State, island, city, garment, what?!

We require clarifications!!!!

[Ruthven]

Cainite Hershey certainly justifies diablerie especially during an esbat on Halloween. It says so in this lost stone fragment over here....oops, dropped it.

[CTPhipps]

But yes, the Cainite Heresy is a Byzantine cult of vampire worshipers that are based on an older edition of the Book of Nod that fell into the hands of mortals.



The Lasombra eventually destroyed the organization but then stole everything and passed it onto the Sabbat. It seems to be the basis for the Path of Cathari and a lot of the Sabbat's ritae.

[zahana]

The Book of Nod as published by Anatole is what we've seen of it. It's not intended to be a complete work by any means and is certainly subject to mistranslation, either in error or intentionally. For the most part, the Sabbat focuses more on The Chronicle of Caine and The Chronicle of Secrets than The Chronicle of Shadows which is where most of the supposed laws are written. Many will argue that Chronicles of Shadows was written by the very elders and antediluvians that they fight against, or at the very least that the rules laid down in that chapter were tainted in translation by their doing.

For comparison, we know that whether by intention or by accident rules and stories from the bible you find at bookstores, churches, motels, or wherever you get you bible, aren't the same as they were 100, 500, or 1,000 years ago. Hell, you can go to Barnes and Noble and find probably a dozen different translations. Now imagine that but the writings were hidden from the public eye, going back 10 millennia. Few Sabbat look at the Book of Nod as a literal translation of the voice of Caine just like few Christians look at the Bible and say "everything in this happened exactly this way and this is the exact word for word word of God"

[Baaldam]

But yes, the Cainite Heresy is a Byzantine cult of vampire worshipers that are based on an older edition of the Book of Nod that fell into the hands of mortals.



The Lasombra eventually destroyed the organization but then stole everything and passed it onto the Sabbat. It seems to be the basis for the Path of Cathari and a lot of the Sabbat's ritae.

Destroyed or took over/subsumed? The fact a lot of its lore seems to have influenced the philosophical/spiritual side of the Sabbat would appear to imply much more of the later than the former. But then i'll be the first to admit my familiarity with DA lore and how it connects or not to VtM's own can be spotty at times.

[CTPhipps]

Destroyed or took over/subsumed? The fact a lot of its lore seems to have influenced the philosophical/spiritual side of the Sabbat would appear to imply much more of the later than the former. But then i'll be the first to admit my familiarity with DA lore and how it connects or not to VtM's own can be spotty at times.

Cults of the Blood Gods state they enacted genocide on the Cainite Heresy's believers and that the Modern Day version hunt down and kill the Lasombra whenever they can.

I admit, I know very little about this element of the story and never actually read the above Cainite Heresy supplement.

I don't know why the Lasombra seemed to hate them so much.

[Baaldam]

Cults of the Blood Gods state they enacted genocide on the Cainite Heresy's believers and that the Modern Day version hunt down and kill the Lasombra whenever they can.

I admit, I know very little about this element of the story and never actually read the above Cainite Heresy supplement.

I don't know why the Lasombra seemed to hate them so much.

Honestly, from what little i read on DA i always had pretty much the opposite impression. Looks like i'll have to check both Heresy and Blood Gods to try to make some sense of it.

[Dwight]

I don't know why the Lasombra seemed to hate them so much.

Lasombra on path of night are big on christianity, and no other gods before me.