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Why do Sabbat support the Book of Nod?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Dwight View Post
    Lasombra on path of night are big on christianity, and no other gods before me.
    Yes, so they must hate the HERETICAL Christiabs more than the actual pagans.




    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #17
      So from what I'm reading here, it could stand to reason that there will be a split in the Sabbat. Those that think the Book of Nod is gospel, and those that think it's propaganda written by the very vampires they're fighting against.

      I like the idea that Sabbat calling the book BS might start to take Caine as a metaphor for the perfect vampire, not necessarily an actual being.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

        Yes, so they must hate the HERETICAL Christiabs more than the actual pagans.

        Not really but you should probably read the book before pointlessly speculating on things


        You've been playing around the magic that is black
        But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Dwight View Post

          Not really but you should probably read the book before pointlessly speculating on things
          Well I did read Cults of the Blood Gods and it says the Lasombra hated them as well as exterminated them.

          And the Church of Caine is composed of Christians.

          So, yes, they acted that way even more than to the actual pagan cults of Kindred.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            Well I did read Cults of the Blood Gods and it says the Lasombra hated them as well as exterminated them.

            And the Church of Caine is composed of Christians.

            So, yes, they acted that way even more than to the actual pagan cults of Kindred.
            I ment the canite heresy supplement


            You've been playing around the magic that is black
            But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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            • #21
              The Heresy had a lot of Lasombra in its membership, but the more devout traditional Catholic Lasombra saw it as a gnostic blasphemy as well as a rival for influence within the Church.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Reasor View Post
                The Heresy had a lot of Lasombra in its membership, but the more devout traditional Catholic Lasombra saw it as a gnostic blasphemy as well as a rival for influence within the Church.

                So one might say the Lasombra catholic status quo suported its destruction - while survivors of the movement would join the young rebelious childer that would join the Anarch Revolt, topple the clan leadership and help form the Sabbat.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                  So one might say the Lasombra catholic status quo suported its destruction - while survivors of the movement would join the young rebelious childer that would join the Anarch Revolt, topple the clan leadership and help form the Sabbat.
                  I think it was the Catholic Lasombra who joined the Sabbat. As stated, the Sabbat were ruthless and brutal to the Cainite Heresy.

                  But again, I found that interesting in Cults of the Blood Gods that the Church of Caine was so anti-Sabbat.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #24
                    Theres actually a little section in caines chosen that talks about influence of the cainite heresy in the sabbat as well as some of its members surviving in the sect as well. So...extermination is about accurate as saying the tremere killed all salubri.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post
                      Theres actually a little section in caines chosen that talks about influence of the cainite heresy in the sabbat as well as some of its members surviving in the sect as well. So...extermination is about accurate as saying the tremere killed all salubri.

                      Possibly even less so, as the Lasombra might have had as much to do with its preservation through the Sabbat's spiritual traditions as its supposed extermination. Beside the fact the Cappadocians and Toreador might have been just as involved or nearly so with the heresy/movement/proto-sect, i guess.

                      Not to mention putting the blame for the Heresy's fall in any one's clan when the organization's own nature made it that ├╝ber blasphemous target to pretty much any medieval witch hunter with something like religious motives. Between that and the "we're doomed!!!" mania induced by their own prophecies it can honestly make one question how much of a hand the Giovanni really had in bringing down the Cappadocians in the first place.

                      (All of that said, some individual kindred in and out of the Giovanni, Genevra being a most notable case, did have quite the story of using the Inquisition and other groups similarly tied to the Church as cat's paws. Those would definitely have a major role in the Caps fall and the plundering of their noddist/mystic legacy as a whole. Indeed, based on these details, her personal ambition, lack of clan loyalty and connections to the Sabbat i would use Genevra as a substitute for Ambrogino in my "playthrough" of Giovanni Chronicles. What among other things made her cameo and destruction at the final chapter of the series that much more relevant and climatic)
                      Last edited by Baaldam; 10-29-2020, 08:54 AM.

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                      • #26
                        I think this is an easy thing to answer. The Book of Nod is essentially about Caine. The Sabbat believes Caine disguised himself as the Ravnos methusaleh Vestgeir, and Vestgeir was instrumental in saving the early sect from destruction. Thus most Sabbat members believe Caine himself created their sect. And since the Book of Nod is about Caine, it makes sense for the Sabbat to honor their "founder" by learning more about him.

                        They believe Caine wants them to be free, and that the antedeluvians' rebellion against him was because they wanted to enslave their childer and Caine wouldn't let them. Hence why it's OK to destroy antedeluvians, but why they revere Caine.

                        The story of Vestgeir, Caine, and the Sabbat's belief Caine created the Sabbat was in the first ST's Guide to the Sabbat. But like a lot of early lore, it's not necessarily repeated in future materials.
                        Last edited by Black Fox; 11-01-2020, 06:01 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                          They believe Caine wants them to be free, and that the antedeluvians' rebellion against him was because they wanted to enslave their childer and Caine wouldn't let them. Hence why it's OK to destroy antedeluvians, but why they revere Caine.
                          I think this gets at the heart of answering the question in the thread title. The Tzimisce and Lasombra Anarchs either sincerely believed that their oppression went all the way to the top of their respective clans, or attacked their founders in a bid for enough power to overwhelm their more closely related elders; either way, a precedent was set and afterward they were all in on opposing the Antedeluvians - now out of necessity, because surely some other clan's ancients would want to make an example out of the upstarts.

                          The closest extant thing to a written source on the Antedeluvians, the scattered fragments that would eventually be compiled as the Book of Nod, depict the Antedeluvians as crashing disappointments to Caine, making the rift between the Third Generation and Caine the line where the chain of oppressors and manipulators could plausibly end. This makes Caine an ultimate "good daddy" figure for the Anarch Revolt and the Sabbat which sprang from it.

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                          • #28
                            I suppose that makes sense if the majority of Sabbat are like mortals, cherry picking what they want from their religious text and ignoring the rest (like treating those who serve well, respecting their elders, not committing Amaranth... Among other things throughout the book). I can see, and even get, reverence for Caine. What I don't get is the whole group of them getting behind a book that was reportedly written by Antediluvians and/or Methuselahs.

                            V5 has the Church of Caine, which takes issue with the Sabbat. This makes sense, as the Sabbat essentially ignores most of what the Book of Nod says (and exalts themselves as predators, not as some kind of divinely gifted beings). I'd like to imagine that some charismatic pack priests started to convince Sabbat that following in the steps of the Dark Father is to be commended, but doing so based on the Book of Nod is a trap. This would, of course, cause a crisis of faith. Some would reconcile their faith with their Sect, others will jump ship to the Church of Caine.

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