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Book of Nod origins

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  • #31
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    The Library was originally burned by Julius Caesar so probably not the case.
    That's actually debatable, some interpretations have it only being a warehouse by the library that got burned and the library itself wasn't too damaged.

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    • #32
      The Library of Alexandria suffered severe damage several times, including during the Roman civil war when the forces of Caesar accidentally burned at least some of it, later at the hands of Theophilus who as patriarch of the local church led Christians in destroying pagan lore, and again when the city fell under Muslim rule and Caliph Omar and remaining sections destroyed for contradicting the Koran. The final sections of the library are reputed to have burned down, fallen over and sunk into the swamp.

      While it is possible, even likely, that vampires were at the library and kept early Noddist texts at hand, I prefer to think of the destruction as simply caused by humans.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
        Indeed, I would argue that the Abyssal Mysticism is something that is bound to eat at your soul since its a nihilistic entropic force at the heart of your soul.
        So goes the argument of V5; oblivion is bad.

        But I would argue that's an argument of ineptitude. A discipline pumping you full of evil juice to make you evil is far less compelling than one that drives you to evil through realistic sociological principles. Abyss mysticism literally marks you as a deviant; your blood and skin blacken, you've got an aura of creep, and you spend hours every night praying to nebulous gods (or demons?) while giving your all into hiding in the shadows rather than... going out and meeting people? Only very strange people would do that kind of thing. This goes equally for necromancy: The Giovanni weren't fucked up because oblivion causes stains upon their morality, they were fucked up because they wanted to play with dead people and rewarded that kind of behaviour. Your way of life is a far more interesting and engaging character flaw than that power you have.

        Imagine if swinging axes made you evil. Nevermind that you belong to an extreme religion, or that you build those axes from bones, or that you use those axes inappropriately; the act of swinging axes is what makes you evil. Slicing your fruit with axes makes you evil.

        That's what 'oblivion is evil because entropic forces...' sounds like.



        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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        • #34
          It might be worth noting that a full roster of Semitic peoples would extend incredibly far across the Middle East, and that the legend of Cain and Abel is not uniquely Jewish. A number of major Saudi tribes claim descent from Abraham through his son Ishmael, for example, and the Qaaba shrine at Mecca was up and receiving tributes from travelers on the trade routes long before Mohammed was born.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Reasor View Post
            It might be worth noting that a full roster of Semitic peoples would extend incredibly far across the Middle East, and that the legend of Cain and Abel is not uniquely Jewish. A number of major Saudi tribes claim descent from Abraham through his son Ishmael, for example, and the Qaaba shrine at Mecca was up and receiving tributes from travelers on the trade routes long before Mohammed was born.
            Islam as well as Christianity shares the mythology of Judaism.

            I remember this coming up with the fact that I pointed out about 70-80% of people in Africa would have the Cain myth as part of their cultural backstory.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #36
              Incidentally, the first Giovanni Clanbook states that the Book of Nod as we know it was compiled by the Cappadocians in the 11th century. (Page 17)

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
                Incidentally, the first Giovanni Clanbook states that the Book of Nod as we know it was compiled by the Cappadocians in the 11th century. (Page 17)
                But wasn’t that superseded by Lore of the Clans?


                “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Penelope View Post

                  But wasn’t that superseded by Lore of the Clans?
                  Sort of. The Venture section states this:

                  There are no reliable records of the First or Second Cities, and damn little in the way of records of any kind pertaining to the Ventrue that date to before the Roman Empire. The Book of Nod and its companion works are most commonly encountered in the form of fourth century Latin texts, which were translations of Greek scrolls, which were translations of Egyptian hieroglyphics, etcetera, etcetera, until you get back to dead language translations of other dead languages.
                  While it claims that much of the Noddist lore known is found older forms than the 11th Century, not all of side materials are. Nor does that does not discount the possibility of Cappadocius being the one that compiled and wrote the modern Book of Nod or an earlier version of it from those materials.

                  It's worth keeping in mind one important thing, that the Ventrue comments above are present from the view of a Ventrue, from an in-universe view. And that view is dismissive of the Book of Nod and the legend of Caine, the First City and all that. He even relates the basic story of [Ventrue]'s Embrace, talking about how Caine found him as a mortal, was impressed by his abilities, had one of his Childer embrace him as the first of the Third Generation and made him his seneschal who would on occasion rule the Enoch while Caine was away from time to time. But then proceeds to points out the gaps of logic in that story, like that if Caine was so impressed by [Ventrue] why didn't he Embrace rather than entrust it to one of his Childer when no one was sure they could at that point? Before ultimately concluding that [Ventrue]'s story was a fiction created early by the Clan to elevate the Clan among vampires. He brings up Mithras and points out the his claims of being a Childer of [Ventrue] could a sham as well and that he could have achieved his Generation through diablerie.

                  So the possibility of the Ventrue speaking is wrong, at least about the origin of the Book of Nod as we know it.

                  As for the Giovanni mention, it's a little tricky as it's presented as text box which would mean it's true or at least truer than what the above said. But at the same time, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Book of Nod that we know is the Book of Nod Cappadocius wrote. After all, some material in the Book of Nod contradicts the Erciyes Fragment. And even then, it does note that while the Giovanni may have the most complete version of the Book, it still isn't a complete version. Also, it's unlikely that the Giovanni let more than a few within their own Clan know about said book in their possession, much less outsiders.


                  Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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                  • #39
                    I tend to think of the Book of Nod in similar ways to many of those writing above.

                    The first two things to consider from my perspective is that all history should be taken wary due to the possibility (particularly amongst vampires) of unreliable narrators and the second matter that according to the principles of MULTI-RESONANCE LAYERED REALITY, things were cosmically different back then, particularly before The Flood that destroyed Enoch.

                    That said however, the Book of Nod (alongside sources such as the Erinyes Fragments and the Testament of the Dark Mother) are the sources we have and like in history, while we take what we have with some salt, we must use what little sources we have to try and create the best possible picture rather then dismissing it all entirely and being left with ignorance.

                    1. We know who compiled the Book of Nod as we know it, but their are most likely numerous different copies, translations, and fragments scattered around the World of Darkness. These stories are millenia old and just like with real ancient texts there’s probably drift, conflict, and lost portions to be considered. (Plus it’s just good ST fuel)

                    2. The origin of these stories, if they are somewhat genuine, would come from Caine and his immediate childer. These would be oral traditions begun in the First City and carried down through Caine’s childer. While some such as Illyes may have developed writing systems for them, we know these systems wouldn’t have survived long after the flood, so these stories were likely transmitted orally.

                    3. We can tell from the clan books that every clan most likely had its own unique oral tradition and while they bore obvious similarities to one another they differed in perspective greatly. The consideration that every clan likely has numerous lineages with slightly distinct oral traditions owing from intentional or unintentional miscommunication must be considered.

                    4. The kindred do not live in a vacuum and thus we must consider syncretism. Many western kindred have obviously syncretized their stories with Abrahamic theology. While every origin story is equally valid from the perspective of layered reality, this syncretism is something we should remember. Not only will their be sharp continental divides in lore as Ebony Kingdom illustrated but their will most likely be sharp cultural, lingual, regional, religious, and national divides. Not only would kindred be influenced by their surroundings and mortal background but many would likely see advantages in altering the narrative to best suit their circumstances.

                    5. Kindred archaeology should be a fun potential chronicle. Due to layered reality every tradition has the potential to have left fragments behind in the forms of relics and bygones. Not only do sleeping methuselah hold great secrets within the chasms of their minds, their may be historical wonders lost throughout the dusts of the old world, waiting to be discovered.

                    I think that considering kindred history through this lenses is a great way to allow for mystery and adventure in ways that having an explicit canonical history is not. Think about how other game lines and groups may have perceived kindred history and how that may alter things. Consider how region and culture could have witnessed drift and alteration in the old lore. Consider what distinct folklore, legends, and histories might have arose in conflict with each other from countless opposed methuselah and elders throughout the ages.

                    History should be a fun and interesting thing, cloaked in mystery.

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                    • #40

                      Use the Old Testament as a guideline, given that it is the main inspiration for the book of nod, both in-universe and out-of-the-game.

                      1)Very old oral tradition that goes back to previous religions and mix with old Caananites/Egyptian/Babylonian myths

                      2) A very old core of scriptures dating somewhere between the 9th century and the 5th century before Christ

                      3) A second batch of scriptures of later development, between 4th and 2th century before Christ.

                      4) Later addenda

                      And use what we know of the Bible in general.
                      The Ventrue mentioned before said that most of the book of Nod was in the " form of fourth century Latin texts",
                      Fourth century CE was the time when the Vulgate, the epitome of the Bible, was written.


                      And last, remember that religions are not closed boxes, but are the result of historical stratifications.
                      Even the myth of Caine and Abel, while we may think that it's "something new" (compared to other iron age myths) has an origin that is far older that most methuselahs.


                      https://web.ics.purdue.edu/~kdickson/inanna.html

                      https://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum09.htm#page_101
                      Last edited by Undead rabbit; 10-31-2020, 02:54 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Someone on a forum somewhere mentioned that one of the WTA supplements (Shattered Dreams maybe, can't remember) had a mention that Caine wasn't the first vampire, simply the first to domesticate them.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by PJ123 View Post
                          Someone on a forum somewhere mentioned that one of the WTA supplements (Shattered Dreams maybe, can't remember) had a mention that Caine wasn't the first vampire, simply the first to domesticate them.
                          There is a cult called the Children of Malakai that believe that Caine wasn't the only vampiric founder, possibly not even the first.

                          The Garou don't have any lore for Caine himself. But in their Silver Record book they have a story of a first vampire, known as the Bloody Man, that was created by the Weaver and cursed by Helios and Gaia while also being possibly partly the cause of the weakening of the Wyrm that allowed the Weaver to eventually trap it.

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