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House Carna discussion thread- The Good, the Bad, and the Witchy

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  • #76
    Just so I can make a post here for fun and not out of Rabid rage. I'd like to go through a 'ranking' of different thaumaturgical factions. Trying to be objective as possible; this isn't about my personal opinion of these factions and what I like and dislike, this is a list trying to tier them by how effective they should be.
    S Tier House Tremere
    Organization: A
    Paradigm: A

    + Magic in the blood.
    House Ippismus
    Organization: A
    Paradigm: A
    +Magic in the blood
    -Shitty name I can never get right
    A Tier Assamite Sorcerers
    Organization: B
    Paradigm: B

    +Magic in the Blood
    House Goratrix (V5)
    Organization: A
    Paradigm: A
    +Magic in the blood
    -In a sect that hates them
    -In a sect that might as well be destroyed.
    Telyavs
    Organization: B
    Paradigm: A
    +Magic in the Blood
    +God of Bees
    -Baltic paganism is pretty dead.
    Presence is an expensive choice in all but V5, but it helps reinforce Telyavs as cult leaders.
    B Tier Followers of Set
    Organization: B
    Paradigm: B
    Bahari:
    Organization: Varies. Probably C
    Paradigm: Varies
    +Weeds out the 'weak'.
    +Strong magic focus
    -Heretics according to almost everyone
    Baali Hives
    Organization: A
    Paradigm: B
    Infernalism is a mixed bag.
    +Secrecy AND well organized.
    Koldun
    Organization: C
    Paradigm: C, but not really relevant for what they do.
    +Stronger at lower levels.
    +more unknown to outsiders
    Church of Caine (V5)
    Organization B
    Paradigm B

    As a product of V5, their magic is garbage, but it would be unfair to use that against them in a meta-list with the other editions in mind.
    C
    Tier
    Noddists
    Organization: C
    Paradigm: Varies
    -Not as focused on magic as their Bahari enemy
    Punk Sorcerers
    Organization: D
    Paradigm: B
    +Genius
    -Antagonistic
    New Agers
    Organization: C
    Paradigm: C
    -Low path and ritual Variety
    +The Rituals they do have are really strong, and the paths they have are great for beginners.
    Church of Set (V5)
    Organization: C
    Paradigm: D
    Ministry of Set (V5)
    Organization: D
    Paradigm: C/D
    Tempting to put this as D Tier
    "Old School"
    Organization: D
    Paradigm: B,C or D.
    +Everyone who does this is old, or learning from someone old.
    -Neo pagans
    +Stronger historically and outside europe/NA
    Independent Demonoligists
    Organization- None.
    Paradigm: B+
    +secrecy
    -Your tutor wants to kill you
    +Anyone that can do this is a fucking top-teir maddog
    -Few people can actually do this.
    Wagna
    Organization: D
    Paradigm C (It's fairly new)
    Sadhanna
    Oranization: C
    Paradigm: B
    -Seems common enough to be devalued in india.
    D Independent infernalists
    Organization: Vaires
    Paradigm:Varies
    -Usually have no idea how their own magic works
    -Literally eat shit.
    +Quick path to power.
    Sihr
    (Islamic Assamite sorcery)

    Organization: C
    Paradigm: D
    +magic in the blood.
    -Restrictive
    -Contradictory paradigm
    F House Carna
    (Taken at face value)
    Organization: D
    Paradigm: D
    +Magic in the blood.
    -Put themselves in direct opposition to S-Tier Forces
    -In a sect which largely dislikes their ideas and ideals.
    A good organization is a combination of powerful or secretive, and thus fosters a good and secure learning environment free from threats, and has good access to learning resources or tutors.

    A good paradigm is one which is safer, and is diverse enough to include a wider variety of powers, while being strong and coherent enough to increase focus/will and be understood by peers who adhere closely to a paradigm's formulas.
    Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 11-09-2020, 04:20 AM.


    Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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    • #77
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      I think part of the issue here is that some people are thinking Wicca and Neo Age baristas and I'm thinking of Macbeth, human sacrifice, Circe, and Morgan Le Fey.
      I Like this. What about House Goratrix?


      “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

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      • #78
        I’ve always imagined that House Goratrix looks kinda like it crawled out of a medieval manuscript describing dark magic mixed with the Satanic Panic.

        I mean like, the tremere also kinda look like a Satanic Panicker’s nightmare but still.

        You’ve got all the usual trappings of Thaumaturgical Hermeticism with the added flair of blood sacrifices, wicked invocations, abominations of science and the like. Hermetics have a trend of flirting with infernalists when they harness the power of the diabolical so I imagine the Inquisition was always pretty wary of the Goratrix.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Penelope View Post

          I Like this. What about House Goratrix?
          I think of them as being full-on Transylvania and Classic Universal Horror. They have weird laboratories with Steampunk motiffs and DIY mad scientist laboratories to make monsters, potions, and so on.

          Doctor Doom, Frankenstein, and 1950s evil.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #80
            Made some updates to my Tier list (because it would be a shame to be wrong)
            -Telyav paradigm is better (more hermetic) than I recalled. So I put them up (where i was originally going to put them but did not)
            -Sihr, or Islamic sorcery, is worse than I recalled. It seems the writers use it as an example of a failed paradigm.


            Goratrix doing horror stuff: Yes
            But also
            Don't normal Tremere do that stuff too?
            The only difference is Goratrix have more of certain fresh 'materials' due to not even pretending to be humane.

            (also vampires don't seem to make potions. At best, Settites brew... magic Beer. They've got bottles of ingredients everywhere, but vampire potions? No. )


            Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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            • #81
              imo, House Carna would fit better in the sabbat,
              the book of the grave war is still dumb though and should be retconned
              Last edited by Pleiades; 11-09-2020, 03:41 PM.


              -

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                the book of the grave war is still dumb though and should be retconned
                It makes for a good McGuffin, to set a plot in motion, to get the PCs to do something that involves House Carna.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                  imo, House Carna wouls work fit better in the sabbat,
                  This, but not as Tremere or even blood sorcerers in particular.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                    imo, House Carna wouls work fit better in the sabbat,
                    the book of the grave war is still dumb though and should be retconned
                    For me, House Carna isn't about the nature magic per se but is about being a revolution against the controlling nature of the Pyramid in general. "What happens when someone develops a way around the Council of Seven's mind control?"

                    It's just interesting because they made their revolt with plans of a fight for their life with the Anarchs....and then the Pyramid was suddenly decapitated.
                    Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-09-2020, 03:54 PM.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      "What happens when someone develops a way around the Council of Seven's mind control?"
                      what happens if you give vaulderie to the camarilla youngsters?

                      it's just that, the concept of camarilla or Tremere being able to break their bonds just doesn't sit right in...the camarilla/Tremere clan
                      what revolution is there to be had when the structure you're revolting against is itself made of revolutionaries

                      if you are right about the book of the grave war having side-effects, the same way the vinculum does, then...let's have Carna as sabbat covens


                      -

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                        what happens if you give vaulderie to the camarilla youngsters?
                        They rebel?

                        Isn't that the origin of the Sabbat.

                        if you are right about the book of the grave war having side-effects, the same way the vinculum does, then...let's have Carna as sabbat covens
                        I think the Sabbat would be the least interesting option by far.

                        Besides, Tremere is Sabbat now. He could just order any Tremere to obey him.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                          They rebel?

                          Isn't that the origin of the Sabbat.
                          ye, but Carna isn't part of the sabbat, she is part of the Camarilla,
                          same for Lasombra who still hold the vaulderie

                          I'm not sure what revolution there is to be, the camarilla is pretty much done,
                          just a matter of time


                          -

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                            ye, but Carna isn't part of the sabbat, she is part of the Camarilla,
                            same for Lasombra who still hold the vaulderie

                            I'm not sure what revolution there is to be, the camarilla is pretty much done,
                            just a matter of time
                            The Camarilla has gained two new clans and lost its greatest enemies. It's also opened up diplomatic relations with the Ashirra and taken Japan.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #89
                              House Carna is fine, their magical style is fine, and it's really weird to build up an extremely insulting and inaccurate view of modern pagan practices and then attribute them to a group of fictional vampires practicing literal blood magic in a fictional world with a vast array of working magical practices dating back thousands of years. And it's not inherently progressive for anyone to want women to have more leeway, more rights, etc. That's how it is in the modern world, but Carna didn't come at this from the perspective of second or third wave feminists. She came at it from the perspective that she didn't like how she was treated within the Pyramid. Like it or not, it's perfectly normal to not like mistreatment and want to change it.

                              Also, Wicca and modern witchcraft aren't based on modern movies about witches. Look up Gerald Gardner. You don't have to agree with him, you don't have to think his scholarship is good, you don't even have to think Wicca is a valid religion, but you could at least understand that modern Wiccan and Witchcraft traditions are not actually based on Hollywood witches.

                              V5's rendition of Carna's new age hippy Hollywood witchcraft:

                              "Carna always found this ritual unwholesome, but playing with blood was a dirty business. Calling on her vitae to give strength, she used a warm spoon to pop free the unconscious victim’s eyeball. She sighed, quite humanlike, as she twisted the orb from its tether and placed it in her mouth.

                              "Holding her hand out, the eye still in place on her tongue, her clanmate placed a heavy knife on Carna’s palm. Without hesitation, she pulled the tip of the victim’s tongue out between his teeth, and sawed through the muscular organ. She placed the tip in her mouth, and proceeded to swallow the two components as her fellow Tremere treated the man’s bleeding orifices.

                              "Carna turned to study the Thracian text on the wall overlooking this entire macabre scene. The man had resisted her mental compulsions, had refused to translate the work willingly, and would have never succumbed to torture. It was a sad necessity that she would have to take his eye and tongue to read and speak the ancient language known only to him."

                              Real summer of love stuff.

                              Yes, she's embracing modern occultists, but "hippy new age hollywood witchcraft" is not an accurate way to describe the entirety of modern occultism and magical practices, nor does it address the fact that they have to learn to use the blood magic regardless. Given that magic in general in the WoD is mutable depending upon the practitioner and their training, rejecting the validity of chaos magic, modern witchcraft, etc. is a parochial stance to take, and not one particularly well suited to the WoD. It's well-suited in-character to traditionalists like Schrekt, and that's actually really good - the clash of ancient and elder practices against modern, newer ones is actually a big part of the WoD in general and Vampire in specific. There's no particular reason why it couldn't happen to magical practice as much as it happens to say neonates vs. elders.
                              Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 11-17-2020, 03:34 AM.

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                              • #90
                                Edit: not worth it.
                                Last edited by Herbert_West; 11-19-2020, 11:58 AM.

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