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  • Wyrm and Infernalism

    What role does Pentex play in your games? What is a true difference between Wyrm, Decani, Demon from The Fallen and other evil creatures in WoD for you?

  • #2
    Originally posted by trueann View Post
    What role does Pentex play in your games? What is a true difference between Wyrm, Decani, Demon from The Fallen and other evil creatures in WoD for you?
    Pentex

    I make it a note that Pentex is the largest multinational (but not the ONLY) multinational in the world and that a lot of the world's billionaires are part of it. The majority of the Camarilla's money is invested in its companies with your typical Ventrue having a hedge fund of double digit millions to three digits by investing in all their various schemes. This isn't because they're vampires or evil but it's because Pentex is the best investment.

    The Sabbat is much more actively dependent on Pentex's largess and is funded by Harold Zettler to an extent that if Harold Zettler were to meet the Final Death then the Sabbat would have only a fraction of the money it would normally have. Zettler is thus indispensable to the Sabbat. Pentex also funds the Sabbat just to increase the random misery and horror in the world. It is also a source for constant outbreaks of infernalism and insanity among their lower ranks (Black Dog publishes a few hundred spell books of pure evil to distribute every year). Ironically, Pentex does only a tiny fraction of "actual evil-evil" demonic rituals, human sacrifices, or environmental disasters and usually as sacrifices to their gods. The Wyrm is very pleased with the daily evils of capitalism.

    The Camarilla Inner Council is aware of Pentex being a bunch of infernalists and calls them, "The Cult of Leviathan." They're basically considered to be a nuisance that is not really the Camarilla's business to deal with. They think of them as a bunch of billionaire Satanists unworthy of dealing with.

    The Sabbat Inquisition SUSPECTS that Pentex is infiltrated by infernalists but doesn't have the power to actually deal with it yet.

    The Giovanni are surprisingly unconnected to Pentex save through their member, Enzo, who has been subverted to infernalism. They mostly use their company connections to launder money now.

    Demons

    According to Garou Mythology, Demons are just delusional Wyrm spirits. They are misremembering the Celestine or Incarnae they served being corrupted from Gaia's service due to the human bodies they are inhabiting and Christian influence. There may be some vague similarities but they're just of the mind they're insane.

    By contrast, Demons believe that Garou have crafted their entire mythology out of the spirits that are little more than the software of the universe THEY created. Demons are the children of the Creator, wholly different [and superior to] spirits, and that normal spirits have grown bloated on their own delusions.

    Changelings actually believe that Demon: The Fallen Demons are just a Abrahamic Kith that is a bit more malevolent than their own kind. This is due to the fact many of them are Lost Ones or recent to the Changeling way.

    And vampires? Vampires believe whatever they want.

    The Abyss the Lasombra contact and the creatures they summon with their shadow powers are Demons and it is their hell, though.

    Kupala

    Kupala has a special place in Kindred mythology in the fact that she was bound to the ground of Transylvania millennia ago and corrupted the nature spirits of that region. Seriously, Romania is one massive Wyrm caern as far as the Garou are concerned. Among other things, this means all the nature spirits are Wyrm tainted. This is why the spirits of nature in Transylvania respond to the Tzmisce and obey them so well since the Tzimisce are linked to this corrupted land and thus Kupala.

    Normal nature spirits want nothing to do with vampires but corrupted ones, Wyrm spirits, as well as most Weaver spirits will obey them. Kupala taught the majority of spirit magic to vampires so her influence shrouds everything.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-06-2020, 01:54 AM.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #3
      1. The Wyrm is a powerful and malignant spirit-cosmic entity. It is one of the strongest beings in oWoD since its part of the Triat. All the spirits it makes or corrupts are simply Banes from the Middle-Umbra and that's it. They are colloquially called Demon for the actions they take and their general spheres of morality in the eyes of the scant few humans who have encountered or had an experience with them call it.

      2. It was never outright explained what the Decani were. Just assume they are powerful entities from either the Middle or High Umbra or both. They certainly aren't Fallen because they were never trapped in the "Abyss".

      3. The Fallen are a weird bunch. They can claim to be aspects of the Abrahamic mythology. They also claim to have created the universe. Also apparently their the only entities that are "implied" to either be "in" (which is EXTREMELY unlikely) Oblivion or under it in some place called the Abyss. We see though however they act like the "Possessed," a subplat from WTA that is a spirit that merges with a human body into one being to be viable in the physical metasphere of WoD earth.

      My headcanon is they are simply Umbrood who somehow got trapped in the Low Umbra- somewhere where spirits DO NOT LIKE and CANNOT survive in for long at all due to how entropic and death-aspected it is since Spirits are living ephemera, while Wraiths and other Plasmic entities are.. well.. Ectoplasmic. Their Lores are extremely potent cosmic charms (like how Fomori, Drones, Gorgons, and Kami can access powers from the inhabiting Spirit-fusion) due to them formerly being tied to the High or Middle Umbra. This however is simply just my headcanon really.

      Originally posted by CTPhipps
      According to Garou Mythology, Demons are just delusional Wyrm spirits. They are misremembering the Celestine or Incarnae they served being corrupted from Gaia's service due to the human bodies they are inhabiting and Christian influence. There may be some vague similarities but they're just of the mind they're insane.

      By contrast, Demons believe that Garou have crafted their entire mythology out of the spirits that are little more than the software of the universe THEY created. Demons are the children of the Creator, wholly different [and superior to] spirits, and that normal spirits have grown bloated on their own delusions.

      Changelings actually believe that Demon: The Fallen Demons are just a Abrahamic Kith that is a bit more malevolent than their own kind. This is due to the fact many of them are Lost Ones or recent to the Changeling way.

      And vampires? Vampires believe whatever they want.

      The Abyss the Lasombra contact and the creatures they summon with their shadow powers are Demons and it is their hell, though.
      Where have you found information about D:TF acknowledging other splats or other splats vice versa? I just checked the D:TF PDF corebook, particularly the Storytelling and Antagonist section of the book. I can't find any info where the Fallen mention other splats at all. Nor any of the splats have mentioned D:TF since it was the last of oWoD before it went out. Though I sincerely doubt Fallen even know what Spirits/Umbrood are- at best they certainly know what Wraiths are, but that'll be it. Fallen have arrived so recently that canonically I don't even think most of the splats are even aware of them whatsoever.


      Jade Kingdom Warrior

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
        Where have you found information about D:TF acknowledging other splats or other splats vice versa? I just checked the D:TF PDF corebook, particularly the Storytelling and Antagonist section of the book. I can't find any info where the Fallen mention other splats at all. Nor any of the splats have mentioned D:TF since it was the last of oWoD before it went out. Though I sincerely doubt Fallen even know what Spirits/Umbrood are- at best they certainly know what Wraiths are, but that'll be it. Fallen have arrived so recently that canonically I don't even think most of the splats are even aware of them whatsoever.
        I thought that was explicit in the opening question that this is how they're handled in your game.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          Pentex is kinda like a methuselah for me. There's a company, there's a company who owns that company, there's a company who owns that company, and then there's Pentex. who itself is just a holding company and only owns significant shares rather than the entirety of the companies beneath them. Very few vampires deal directly (well, through ghouls and their own intermediaries) with Pentex itself. I imagine many vampires hold shares and invest in the same companies that Pentex does. Most workers at pentex are dead inside and kept aware of only a fraction of the scope of the company's holdings.
          There are plenty of other Wyrm influenced corperations too. It's not just them. They're just the ones that have been on the radar for long enough; Too big to be utterly secret, too strong to be destroyed quickly.


          Infernalists generally don't know the difference.


          Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
          There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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          • #6
            I have a very different conception of PENTEX in my chronicles because I do not like the canonical version. My version is more of a worldwide conspiracy of deep umbral entities and their fomori servants that infiltrated not just capitalist businesses, but the communist/socialist economies and nationalized oil companies, etc. Their intent is to anti-terraform the Earth and produce a new biosphere for their kind. Some of the traditional PENTEX companies (the ones most likely to industrially pollute) are prominent members of this conspiracy. However, I have plenty of business corporations (or their leaders) that are in thrall to malevolent spiritual forces. Some of them are based on certain canonical PENTEX subsidiaries (but with other different goals), and some of them are of my own.

            If I don't run Werewolf, this is likely all behind the scenes and does not come into play for my Vampire chronicles. However, it is always possible that occult oriented characters might become aware of them, or characters with lots of secret influence over the economy might notice other secret influence blocs. Vampires know there are other supernatural creatures out there, or that humans may have access to occult powers as well. That's usually the extent of their knowledge. But certain vampires, usually elders with lots of experience, may have more detailed knowledge of these rivals. There are Ventrue on the watch for the so-called Secret Masters. Tremere know a lot, as do lots of individual vampires who pay attention to non-vampire activities. How these rivalries play out are based on a lot of individual factors - some safely ignore each other, others work together on occasion, and others fight over local control of some entity. Usually though there is not much interaction.

            As for the evil spirits themselves, ultimately all of them serve one Master whether you want to call it Satan, the Wyrm, Oblivion or a collection of Neverborn Malfeans. Most of what we "know" is actually just the mythology of the people in question who serve or fight this spiritual influence. The same entity can manifest or incarnate as an Astral spirit, a Bane, or other things and each has many names as well as guises. How this actually all works out is probably above the heads of any characters or PCs, so other than a very general idea of some things, I don't worry about it as ST. But I do hold that the various Demons of the Astral, D:tF, and Demonics of Wraith are all the same creatures. In general, its the Neverborn Malfeans who are at the head of things - but what precisely they are is up to debate.

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            • #7
              What game of mine would be complete without infernalists? I really like banes, Formor, First teams, Wyrm drugs, Wyrm Weapons and Mockery breeds.
              I've yet to find the excuse to really use them in my vampire Games. But I like that they're there. I like the Idea that they're hired out to older vampires, who also get some of the Obsolete HIT marks and mage/weaver tools that mysteriously seem to have fallen out of storage.


              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
              There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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              • #8
                D:tF and V:tM are my two favorite game lines from White Wolf. I have, somehow, never used Pentex in either. In Demon, run-ins with the corporate servants of dark powers could go to some very interesting places, but I would swap that game's mythology in and put the Earthbound in the Wyrm's place. The symbolic cosmic principle of Entropy and its many heads might still be what the Board of Directors think they're donating their Faith to.

                Vampire has far less to do with combatting evil spirits, but the appearance of Pentex products could possibly make for some fun easter eggs. I've always assumed that the Liquid Demon Seed ("Slobber It Down!" tm) soft drink vending machines in Bloodlines were stocked with products from some Pentex subsidiary or other.
                Last edited by Reasor; 11-06-2020, 10:42 PM.

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                • #9
                  When it comes to PENTEX I’m always divided between a couple philosophies. I agree that it shouldn’t be up front and center but I go back and forth over what it actually is. Do I prefer it to be a conspiracy of Wyrm Cultists within the leadership of several large corporate interests who cooperate with one another and the Wyrm for mutual benefit or do I prefer it as a shadowy over-company that controls several other more well-known companies while trying studiously to never let their own activity see the light of day; akin to the many real life parent companies in our own world that maintain a sort of capitalist oligarchy.

                  As far as other fiends; I generally treat them as different manifestations of the same root issues. Banes (and fomori, BSD, Wyrm cults, and the Fallen Wyrm) are animist reflections of an underlying cosmic corruption which pervades every level of the World of Darkness. Nephandi, Specters, Thallain, Infernal Wan Kuei, Fallen, etc. are all arguably distinct manifestations of the same underlying rot and I generally treat them as such, although naturally with their own unique paradigms kept in consideration.

                  As far as where vampires and their infernalists interact with all of this, I honestly think that those interested interact wherever they can. Many of those seeking to make an infernal deal for power and riches don’t care about the precise philosophical nature of their diabolical liaison. They just want what they have to offer.

                  The nature of said liaison does matter though when considering what they want in return...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
                    When it comes to PENTEX I’m always divided between a couple philosophies. I agree that it shouldn’t be up front and center but I go back and forth over what it actually is. Do I prefer it to be a conspiracy of Wyrm Cultists within the leadership of several large corporate interests who cooperate with one another and the Wyrm for mutual benefit or do I prefer it as a shadowy over-company that controls several other more well-known companies while trying studiously to never let their own activity see the light of day; akin to the many real life parent companies in our own world that maintain a sort of capitalist oligarchy.

                    As far as other fiends; I generally treat them as different manifestations of the same root issues. Banes (and fomori, BSD, Wyrm cults, and the Fallen Wyrm) are animist reflections of an underlying cosmic corruption which pervades every level of the World of Darkness. Nephandi, Specters, Thallain, Infernal Wan Kuei, Fallen, etc. are all arguably distinct manifestations of the same underlying rot and I generally treat them as such, although naturally with their own unique paradigms kept in consideration.

                    As far as where vampires and their infernalists interact with all of this, I honestly think that those interested interact wherever they can. Many of those seeking to make an infernal deal for power and riches don’t care about the precise philosophical nature of their diabolical liaison. They just want what they have to offer.

                    The nature of said liaison does matter though when considering what they want in return...
                    I generally use comic book baddies as an example.

                    Umbrella
                    Roxxon Oil
                    Luthor Corp

                    The leadership is cartoonishly evil and they are always up to 1 or 2 evil plans at any given time that could DESTROY THE WORLD but 99.99% of the employees are just greedy punch clock villains ruining the world one dollar at a time.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #11
                      Definitely a valid take.

                      No One of Consequences has a really great thread on PENTEX inspiration in the WtA segment of the forum if folks want to check that out.

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                      • #12
                        It's a puzzle piece like any other detail or element of the WoD (old or new) If it interests me or I see a place where it could fit, I may make use of it. If I don't... I'll ignore it. I've found many (but not all) people care for their personal headcanon above all else. As long as I can find an idea or explanation that doesn't abuse their headcanon, they probably won't object to it. That's also where the challenge lies (especially when you involve multiple headcanons.)

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