Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Player Characters

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Toa_Kiril
    started a topic Player Characters

    Player Characters

    Hey,

    Thanks to all those who helped with my chronicle questions. I ran a successful one shot for 5 hours that was nothing but laughs, I have a PC question now.


    In VTM, are you able to make things like: tanks, thief's, rogues, paladin etc well the VTM equivalent?. one of my friends, the "eat the pope" guy (explained in other posts) he keeps throwing ideas out like: Blade Mistress, gothic hacker, Viking embraced centuries ago. Its only a matter of time before i get asked "can i make master chef or john wick or iron man" or some other type of character. Are there limits to what character themes can be used or made? at what point do you say "that character cant be made in this world, its not feasible with the world or character sheet"

    thanks for reading

  • Mister_Dunpeal
    replied
    Can you do XYZ? Sure, if you want to as many others have already noted. The challenge is how you justify it. Although I think the idea of MMORPG terms would probably cause some WW authors to have an aneurysm since that would be leaning more towards 'D&D logic' than they might be comfortable with. But as long as it works for you personally and whoever you might be playing with.. it doesn't really matter.

    And if there are issues, there's always ways to compromise to let them have at least some of what they want without disrupting the game (after all there is some acknowledgement for cinematic/action oriented characters, whatever distaste some may have for it.)

    Funny enough with more recent iterations of the game (not necssearily V5, but also V20) I feel like 'technomancy' stuff would lean more towards the Duskborn/Thin-bloods or Anarchs. And I see no reason 'technomagic' couldn't work as readly in VtM as it does in MtA. It just requires some tweaking.

    Another option is to use this person's ideas as a springboard to expand their concepts of such characters (variations, or suchlike) so even if its not a 1:1 Master Chief translation, its similar enough to satisfy them. Fiction will be chock full of 'similar but different' concepts that can be relatable.

    Leave a comment:


  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied
    Originally posted by Damian May View Post

    It doesn't matter if he's doing it on purpose, and unless he is utterly socially clueless on some level he knows exactly what he's doing.

    He will absolutely run your game into the ground and ensure no one but him has any fun.
    Yeah I agree with this. Either he is incredibly clueless or he's being willfully ignorant. Neither are good things.

    If he's not getting what you're trying, show him some Youtube videos of people playing VtM, even if it's not the same Edition as your playing. If he doesn't understand after seeing the game in action, drop him from the game. I know it can be tough and it will probably piss him off but it's better in the long run to stop it early into a game that he doesn't understand/want to play and make things worst. I've experienced and heard enough stories of games going to hell because one person at the table was... like your friend.

    Again, if you have to do that it will likely be unpleasant and hurt your friendship for a bit but in the long run, it is a better option than trying to play with him and have the game derail because that can lead to a big blow up at the table which could damage multiple friendships.

    Leave a comment:


  • Damian May
    replied
    Originally posted by Toa_Kiril View Post
    Damian May he is not trying to test, atleast not to my knowledge, he is just not considering enough the social aspects of this character of the potential camerilla backlash there will be
    It doesn't matter if he's doing it on purpose, and unless he is utterly socially clueless on some level he knows exactly what he's doing.

    He will absolutely run your game into the ground and ensure no one but him has any fun.

    Leave a comment:


  • Toa_Kiril
    replied
    Damian May he is not trying to test, atleast not to my knowledge, he is just not considering enough the social aspects of this character of the potential camerilla backlash there will be

    Leave a comment:


  • Damian May
    replied
    Are your other players buying into the milieu of the game? If so and acting like a 13-year old Edgey McEdge is the only one testing you then just cut him loose.

    Leave a comment:


  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Keep to the original camarilla clans. Avoid bloodlines like the plague.
    I kind of agree with this. Sticking to the Cam 7 would be the easiest for a general first timer. Caitiff too would be fine as long as you keep in mind that in Cam circles they are the bottom of the bottom. Though I personally homerule that the first two Disciplines for Caitiff taken must be from the Common Discipline before they can purchase any others.

    Though if you're not advise to running a mono-Clan game, the three structured Independent Clans of the Assamites, Setities and Giovanni could work well as an alternative. Especially the Giovanni with their more straight forward structure and belief system that anyone can quickly pick up. Also their neutrality with the other Sects means you can put them in any city and not have to worry about the local politics too much.

    Well provided your PCs don't attack every vampire they encounter or something similarly troubling.

    Leave a comment:


  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    -an old vampire isn't a problem if you go with -and they fucked up and went into a torpor that lasted all these years.
    That said. most people exemplify dunning-krueger when it comes to history.

    I would stress that there are disciplines like Dominate and Presence to players. These powers are really fun and help players understand they don't need to make combat munchkins.

    Keep to the original camarilla clans. Avoid bloodlines like the plague.

    Leave a comment:


  • DrHappyAngry
    replied
    Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
    The thing is for me though is that WoD is less about balance and more about story. Having high level Disciplines isn't game-breaking, its part of the game. It would be interesting story additive to the chronicle to explore with a PC being a Methuselah waking after torpor and how the local city would react, especially the already structured Elders and the like in the local hierarchy. The thing is that WoD isn't like DnD where you grasp at straws and NPC stat blocks to make everything "balanced". With WoD being modeled after our own world but more darker, you can expect some scenarios to be unfair no matter what- that's one of the intrigues of the game. There are no "levels", no HP beyond 7 excluding some exceptions, combat is deadly no matter what and have a big impact to heal in regards to Aggravated damage, your actions aren't guaranteed to succeed and could be subject to failures or botches, etc. However being a Methuselah alone isn't the be-all or the end-all because you can still get overwhelmed or outmaneuvered by Elders younger than you who are more adjusted to the modern world (relatively) or be confronted by a rival Methuselah who has sensed you've awakened; that could be an explosive chronicle that could put the whole city in a big shadow war.

    However again this is left best to experienced players who know the game well.
    This is true up to a point. Vampire isn't fair and some disciplines are more powerful than others. That being said, if somebody's a thousand year old vampire and the rest are neonates, that would definitely create some feelings that the game is really weighted in the other players favor if the group's not right for it. What you say about making a story about a PC methuselah waking up could be interesting, but let's face it, from the way this player's been described, they're not up to playing a 1000 year old otherworldly being and just want to smash shit. My point about high level disciplines was about a chronicle centered around neonates and beginning players and storytellers. If you're just starting out as a storyteller, you've got enough on your hands without having to worry about a player blindsiding you with some uber power that might break the story you've written. It's a really good idea to keep that high level stuff out of the players hands until you and them have enough of a handle on things. Down the road if you want to explore an elders game, go for it, but start small or things can get away from you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shakanaka
    replied
    The thing is for me though is that WoD is less about balance and more about story. Having high level Disciplines isn't game-breaking, its part of the game. It would be interesting story additive to the chronicle to explore with a PC being a Methuselah waking after torpor and how the local city would react, especially the already structured Elders and the like in the local hierarchy. The thing is that WoD isn't like DnD where you grasp at straws and NPC stat blocks to make everything "balanced". With WoD being modeled after our own world but more darker, you can expect some scenarios to be unfair no matter what- that's one of the intrigues of the game. There are no "levels", no HP beyond 7 excluding some exceptions, combat is deadly no matter what and have a big impact to heal in regards to Aggravated damage, your actions aren't guaranteed to succeed and could be subject to failures or botches, etc. However being a Methuselah alone isn't the be-all or the end-all because you can still get overwhelmed or outmaneuvered by Elders younger than you who are more adjusted to the modern world (relatively) or be confronted by a rival Methuselah who has sensed you've awakened; that could be an explosive chronicle that could put the whole city in a big shadow war.

    However again this is left best to experienced players who know the game well.

    Leave a comment:


  • DrHappyAngry
    replied
    Originally posted by Toa_Kiril View Post
    DrHappyAngry the main issue with my circle of friends, is they are the only people i have to play this game with, and if i limit the range of themes they can have for their character they will get turned off really quickly.

    If i said to them "the characters you can make have to fit the theme of the chronicle. So if you all wanted to play a stealth game but one of you made a trigger happy character, that is the opposite of stealth"

    he will wonder why he should play a game where he doesn't have complete control of how he makes the character. "its not my character if it has to conform"

    in regards to "Concepts" what is given to me from them are very broad terms or very DnD relative keywords. words like: "merc" and "assassin". A lot of their character sheet look like Underworld characters and cliché move reference, like a Samurai with fangs.

    He has an issue with his characters having an "allegiance" to the factions, he keeps asking "can I have a vampire character who is not in league with any factions" like his gothic hacker character, he wanted her to be the Ventrue primogen. which he told me he added before the game

    again sorry for coming to this forum with annoying questions lol. VTM is the first table top game i am learning XD

    I really appreciate everyone's help
    Kharnov and AkatsukiLeader13 hit the nail on the head pretty well with regards to those questions. I recently just had to show a player the door for clashing with the rest of the group, monopolizing all the game time with arguing and doing stupid shit without considering the consequences and then bitching about them. If they don't want to play well with the story and the rest of group does, maybe they should come back for a more action type story later. Generally your first reaction shouldn't be to say no, you can't play that, but try to offer suggestions so that it could work. Sometimes it's just not an option and some people do not fit into all games well. Perhaps you can make a bargain with them to conform to the setting/group, they make a fitting character for this, but you'll run a more actiony game later where they can play something like what they're wanting now. Maybe a game where the players are working for an Alastor and can be loud problem solvers would be a future game that could work, but if the rest of the group wants the more stealth story, they can either conform or you can run it without them, because the rest of the players aren't going to have a good time if he continually is blowing their cover. Depending on the type of story you want to tell, maybe it could be tweaked, have some action scenes and some stealth scenes and whatever other types you need. Maybe you can throw in some side stuff for them to deal with. Still if they just clash too much with the group and they are willing to drag everyone else down to the point where others aren't having fun, it might just be worth considering not playing with them, at least for this story. It's also perfectly reasonable to put some restrictions on what people can play, even in D&D DMs disallow some class options, races and other things that they feel are unbalanced and don't fit the setting or story. A lot of great art is done with restrictions and sometimes restrictions can be freeing or inspiring.

    BTW, one thing about playing a vampire that's been active for 1000 years. It'd be like somebody asking to play level 30 mage in D&D where everyone else is 1st level. It's not balanced and can break the story if you don't know how to deal with all the high level stuff. I mentioned you could have them be torporous for a lot of the time, so that's not saying no to them, but trying to work with what they want but maintain balance and not introduce game breaking powers.

    Have they looked at the example concepts in the books? Maybe add some stuff to the list. Mercenary and assassin do work, but could use a little bit of elaboration and backstory. Why do do this? How did you get into it? What kind of assassin or merc are you? It might be a good idea to sit down with them and explain that they're playing a personality, not a bunch of stats to just destroy stuff. Also destroying shit is a great way to make enemies more powerful than you, so there's a bit of self preservation there not to go nuts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shakanaka
    replied
    I agree with Kharnov with what he said referencing my previous statement- since their so new to VTM, don't let me be Elders or Methuselahs yet; I take back what I said earlier. They don't know the franchise whatsoever and will botch it and not understand the general modus operandi of Elder/Methuselah activities or niches. Let be a youngin' still so they learn the ropes for a short chronicle. After that's done and they still want to be Elder/Methuselahs, let them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kharnov
    replied
    In terms of mechanics, I think the World of Darkness (not necessarily Vampire: the Masquerade) is capable of handling just about any character concept conceivable. And the flexibility of the classless system is one of the things I really like about the Storyteller system in general. As many have noted, it's just a question of distributing Attributes, Abilities, etc.

    As others have already hit on, it sounds like you're having less of a mechanical problem and more of a thematic one. I don't think the problem is necessarily that Underworld-style action isn't appropriate for VtM in general; just because trenchcoats and katanas aren't for everyone doesn't mean it's an invalid play-style. But it is important that the expectations of the players and the Storyteller line up to some extent. It should be a matter of negotiation, back and forth, but there ultimately does need to be a consensus between the Storyteller and the players about what type of story is going to be told. As noted above, failing to do so is likely to lead to antagonism between the players and the Storyteller.

    Apologies, but I have not been following your previous posts closely, so I do not recall the background of your story or the list of player characters involved. So far it seems like most of your issues are focused around one player; my first question would be, do you think that this player's approach to the game is compatible with the rest of your group, or incompatible?

    If most of your players are okay with, or might even prefer, a more action-based hack'n'slash game, then you as the Storyteller might want to consider running a game that is suited more to the tastes of your group of players. You can't force a group of players to be involved in a story that doesn't interest them. Dark Ages might be a better setting for that kind of game, but a coterie of Archons or a pack of Sabbat crusaders are perfectly functional in the Final Nights.

    Conversely, if most of your players want one kind of story, and this one player wants something incompatible, then that player is the one who probably ought to be compromising if they want to be part of the game. And I frankly agree that you should be telling your wannabe Autarkis Primogen that they need to learn what words mean before they can start tossing them around like that. That's not to say that independent but politically powerful Kindred don't exist, they do, but they are definitely the exception rather than the rule, and a player interested in pursuing that route should be expected to learn how to realistically fit it into the setting before demanding that they be allowed to play one.

    On a final note, it has been mentioned that Elder or Methuselah-level games are possible, and I agree. But I would include the strong caveat that you should almost certainly not allow it at this time. If both you and your players are new to Vampire and the Storyteller system, you should really take the time to learn the system slowly before making your life ridiculously harder by giving your players access to grocery lists of Disciplines right out of the gate, possibly even including powers over 5 dots. And you frankly should not do it unless you are willing to use Rule Zero like a giant stick to beat your players back into line if necessary, because you are almost certainly going to have to deal with obscure rulings that might upset your players sometimes. Ultimately, your job is to keep the game running smoothly for everyone, and sometimes that will conflict with what individual players might think is "fun" or "cool."

    Leave a comment:


  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied
    Originally posted by Toa_Kiril View Post
    DrHappyAngry the main issue with my circle of friends, is they are the only people i have to play this game with, and if i limit the range of themes they can have for their character they will get turned off really quickly.
    Understandable. But at the same time, this is your game you're putting together, that you're putting the work into. While there is always room for compromise, they should still respect that. Do not be a tyrant. Do not be a pushover.

    Sit them all down and tell them what you want out of this game and what you expect from them, then hear what they want to play. If some players want to partake in what you want but a few don't, then drop those players and play with the ones that do. If the majority want to be murder hobos while you want to run a detective game, it's time to switch games.

    Also in this day and age you do have options beyond just your friends. There are plenty of websites for online games, whether they be voice chat or play-by-post. If you live in or near a city, there may be a Gaming/Hobbyist store within reach that offers tables for people to come together and play games. Again, the internet is your friend in that regard.

    So there are options if things fall apart.

    If i said to them "the characters you can make have to fit the theme of the chronicle. So if you all wanted to play a stealth game but one of you made a trigger happy character, that is the opposite of stealth"

    he will wonder why he should play a game where he doesn't have complete control of how he makes the character. "its not my character if it has to conform"
    Okay between this thread and your last one, I'm getting the distinct impression that this guy doesn't get VtM and doesn't want to. He just wants to be an action hero wading through enemies. While there is nothing wrong with that in and of itself but that's not what VtM is about. If you've explained that to him and he hasn't accepted that then it's time to seriously consider asking him to leave the game.

    I know. It sucks when it happens, especially with friends but if you don't there's two things that are likely to happen, he's going to either get bored and unhappy with all the non-combat going or he's doing to pick fights with every NPC he can to get that action fix which will cause problems for everyone else and likely see the whole party getting in serious trouble.

    in regards to "Concepts" what is given to me from them are very broad terms or very DnD relative keywords. words like: "merc" and "assassin". A lot of their character sheet look like Underworld characters and cliché move reference, like a Samurai with fangs.
    That's not surprising for newcomers to VtM/WoD. When I first played VtM back in the early 2000s, none of my friends had any experience either beyond the VtM Redemption game. It was a hilariously cringy game with character much like you were describing. Hell if you ever look at some of the earliest books of VtM, they had some truly cringy characters and things.

    But in time I learned VtM and what it really was about.

    He has an issue with his characters having an "allegiance" to the factions, he keeps asking "can I have a vampire character who is not in league with any factions" like his gothic hacker character, he wanted her to be the Ventrue primogen. which he told me he added before the game
    Okay he does not understand VtM if he's asking that his character to be a Primogen but also independent because Primogen in the modern nights is a Camarilla title. You cannot be a Primogen if you're not a member of the Camarilla.

    Also I would NOT give the Primogen to a person that's new to VtM. Especially not to this player you've been talking about as that's more a game of intrigue and social combat that frankly this player does not sound like he wants to play. Primogen don't go off and fight things. They send the younger, dumber licks to do that for them.

    again sorry for coming to this forum with annoying questions lol. VTM is the first table top game i am learning XD

    I really appreciate everyone's help
    Honestly at this point, I strongly urge you and your players to go to Youtube and watch some of the many VtM games played there to get a sense for what you're getting into as it seems like some of your group thinks this is going to be a dungeon crawl like D&D when VtM is a different beast altogether.

    Leave a comment:


  • Toa_Kiril
    replied
    DrHappyAngry the main issue with my circle of friends, is they are the only people i have to play this game with, and if i limit the range of themes they can have for their character they will get turned off really quickly.

    If i said to them "the characters you can make have to fit the theme of the chronicle. So if you all wanted to play a stealth game but one of you made a trigger happy character, that is the opposite of stealth"

    he will wonder why he should play a game where he doesn't have complete control of how he makes the character. "its not my character if it has to conform"

    in regards to "Concepts" what is given to me from them are very broad terms or very DnD relative keywords. words like: "merc" and "assassin". A lot of their character sheet look like Underworld characters and cliché move reference, like a Samurai with fangs.

    He has an issue with his characters having an "allegiance" to the factions, he keeps asking "can I have a vampire character who is not in league with any factions" like his gothic hacker character, he wanted her to be the Ventrue primogen. which he told me he added before the game

    again sorry for coming to this forum with annoying questions lol. VTM is the first table top game i am learning XD

    I really appreciate everyone's help

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X