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  • Originally posted by Trippy View Post

    Conversely, I hate the approach. Not least because if they just add Clan upon Clan upon Clan, then we will inevitably just end up with a load of badly designed ones and the game itself will lose any sense of background focus it had for what would be, in effect, the inclusion of a bunch of Prestige Classes. Less mystery, less symbolism and just a bunch of power fantasy to replace it with. I don’t buy the crap about ‘misinterpretation' of the Book of Nod either - it actually lists the 13 Clans by name.

    If whoever mentioned that the Clan/Bloodline confusion could just be unspecific marketing talk, then maybe that is it. If so, some of the other justifications here will look silly.

    So the number "13" is not a silly symbolism already? What else, was the Third Generation embraced on the Halloween night, or Friday 13?

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    • Originally posted by Trippy View Post

      Conversely, I hate the approach. Not least because if they just add Clan upon Clan upon Clan, then we will inevitably just end up with a load of badly designed ones and the game itself will lose any sense of background focus it had for what would be, in effect, the inclusion of a bunch of Prestige Classes. Less mystery, less symbolism and just a bunch of power fantasy to replace it with. I don’t buy the crap about ‘misinterpretation' of the Book of Nod either - it actually lists the 13 Clans by name.

      If whoever mentioned that the Clan/Bloodline confusion could just be unspecific marketing talk, then maybe that is it. If so, some of the other justifications here will look silly.

      You mean like the prior editions, when we got 'the fleshcrafters because Necroscope was cool and freaky or the Clan of Snakes But Through Thulsa-Doom Conan Lens'?

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      • Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post
        So the number "13" is not a silly symbolism already? What else, was the Third Generation embraced on the Halloween night, or Friday 13?
        No it’s not for the reasons already pointed out on this thread. The original writers made 13 a significant number in the game, not me, and its biblical/occult references lends atmosphere to the game.

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        • Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

          But my point is that it's just a line in a press release (and some related chatter online). We shouldn't extrapolate that to mean that the Salubri have been elevated to clan status just yet.

          Press releases are for journalists as much as players. A journo who doesn't know VTM won't care that the Salubri are really a bloodline. And it's easier to say '3 new clans' than '2 new clans and 1 bloodline'.
          It's also repeated the announcement video on the WoD YouTube channel, as well as Outstar's interview with Justin Achilli. I haven't even seen the press release.

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          • Originally posted by Trippy View Post

            If whoever mentioned that the Clan/Bloodline confusion could just be unspecific marketing talk, then maybe that is it. If so, some of the other justifications here will look silly.
            The Book of Nod is not and really shouldn't be treated as a factual guide to Kindred history. It has a lot of bits that are ambiguous, clearly not true, or at least self-aggrandizing.

            Here's Justin Achilli calling the Salubri a clan: https://youtu.be/T-C1bj0rZPM?t=407

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            • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

              The Book of Nod is not and really shouldn't be treated as a factual guide to Kindred history. It has a lot of bits that are ambiguous, clearly not true, or at least self-aggrandizing.

              Here's Justin Achilli calling the Salubri a clan: https://youtu.be/T-C1bj0rZPM?t=407
              There is no ‘factual guide’ to a fictional gameworld, but if the directional choice is to ignore previous symbolism, without any reason given, then the game loses atmosphere accordingly. I mean the logical extension of your argument is that the Book of Nod as a reference is now redundant in the game?
              Last edited by Trippy; 11-20-2020, 07:29 PM.

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              • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                There is no ‘factual guide’ to a fictional gameworld, but if the directional choice is to ignore previous symbolism, without any reason given, then the game loses atmosphere accordingly. I mean the logical extension of your argument is that the Book of Nod as a reference is now redundant in the game?
                The entire basis of your argument for 13 clans is that the Book of Nod is factual in the setting. Don't quibble over semantics now.

                The logical extension of my argument is that all in-character text is automatically suspicious.

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                • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

                  The entire basis of your argument for 13 clans is that the Book of Nod is factual in the setting. Don't quibble over semantics now.

                  The logical extension of my argument is that all in-character text is automatically suspicious.
                  No it is not at all. The basis of my argument is that the game has always utilised symbolism like Nod, the number 13 and other Biblical/occult references to create a particular atmosphere. To chuck them out on a whim in a cavalier sense, without any reason given, puts the atmosphere that has served the game almost 30 years at risk.

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                  • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                    No it is not at all. The basis of my argument is that the game has always utilised symbolism like Nod, the number 13 and other Biblical/occult references to create a particular atmosphere. To chuck them out on a whim in a cavalier sense, without a reason given, puts the atmosphere that has served the game almost 30 years at risk.
                    It doesn't, though. If your argument isn't there should be 13 clans and supported with the Book of Nod saying there are 13 clans as you have said repeatedly, then you should state what you actually mean more clearly without leaning so much on the Book of Nod. The list of other occurrences of 13 in culture doesn't really build a strong argument that this particular thing should always be 13.

                    And maybe not call other people "silly."

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                    • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

                      It doesn't, though. If your argument isn't there should be 13 clans and supported with the Book of Nod saying there are 13 clans as you have said repeatedly, then you should state what you actually mean more clearly without leaning so much on the Book of Nod. The list of other occurrences of 13 in culture doesn't really build a strong argument that this particular thing should always be 13.

                      And maybe not call other people "silly."
                      What I have argued is perfectly clear and certainly doesn’t deserve having straw man arguments lobbed in return. At no point ever did I start arguing about ‘facts’ in the Book of Nod. I have consistently referred to the lore presented in it as being fundamental to the atmosphere of the game. The arguments you are presenting right now are silly. If you don’t appreciate the symbolism that was crafted into the original Vampire game, or the biblical/occult references it has then that is your issue, but they have always been with the game.
                      Last edited by Trippy; 11-20-2020, 09:00 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                        No it’s not for the reasons already pointed out on this thread. The original writers made 13 a significant number in the game, not me, and its biblical/occult references lends atmosphere to the game.

                        For the goth teens in the 90s, maybe. Now, it would only make people laugh.

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                        • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                          What I have argued is perfectly clear and certainly doesn’t deserve having straw man arguments lobbed in return. At no point ever did I start arguing about ‘facts’ in the Book of Nod. I have consistently referred to the lore presented in it as being fundamental to the atmosphere of the game. The arguments you are presenting right now are silly. If you don’t appreciate the symbolism that was crafted into the original Vampire game, or the biblical/occult references it has then that is your issue, but they have always been with the game.

                          Fundamental, atmosphere, written in canon... unshakable and immovable foundations of the game..
                          in the meantime, the very creators of the game are freely toying around with new ideas, ready to reinvigorate the overcrowded, dusty old lore with them. Doing the right thing as adult, mature creators would do instead of guarding the old truths as something sacred and untouchable. I understand nostalgia is a hell of a drug, but c'mon. Time to move on.

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                          • Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post
                            For the goth teens in the 90s, maybe. Now, it would only make people laugh.
                            The same references can be found in the latest edition of the game, released just a couple of years ago. Nice bit of disparagement over the origins of the game though. We’re you actually born in the 1990s, may I ask?

                            And in response to your second post, the current development team were not actually the original creators, and your aren’t their spokesperson. Like I say, if they turn around in a couple of weeks and say something that reestablishes 13 Clans again, all these arguments will look silly.
                            Last edited by Trippy; 11-21-2020, 03:31 PM.

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                            • I purchased Vampire first edition in 1991, and started playing almost immediately. I did VLARP for several years. I ran and played in several tabletop chronicles.

                              I don't see any problem with rejuvenating the game with new ideas, new assumptions, new clans, and new takes on the old material.

                              The excellent Vampire 20 material published over the past several years is intentionally meant to appeal to fans of any of the first three editions, they're not really the authority to appeal to for precedent.

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                              • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                                What I have argued is perfectly clear and certainly doesn’t deserve having straw man arguments lobbed in return. At no point ever did I start arguing about ‘facts’ in the Book of Nod. I have consistently referred to the lore presented in it as being fundamental to the atmosphere of the game. The arguments you are presenting right now are silly. If you don’t appreciate the symbolism that was crafted into the original Vampire game, or the biblical/occult references it has then that is your issue, but they have always been with the game.
                                Do you need me to track down every time you've cited the Book of Nod for 13 clans? If the Book of Nod's not a factual reference to Cainite history, and only the symbolism is important, I would say that there's a lot more to the book's symbolism than the number 13.

                                My arguments aren't silly - I just don't feel any particular allegiance to a number, nor do I think contradicting that number will lead to dogs and cats living together in the streets. It'll be fine. A silly argument is when you try to refer to a piece of fiction as justification for the fiction existing in that form. It's circular, and also weird. Setting aside the WoD and speaking generally, how do you kill a vampire? The answer to that is exactly the same as the answer to "why must there be 13 clans?"

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