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  • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

    The arguments aren't silly, and no the belittling didn't happen. What happened was people said that 13 was just a number and it's okay to depart from that symbolism, and then you listed several unrelated 13s as examples of cultural importance of 13, but "They can have more if they want" isn't silly, nor was my analogy about planets and dwarf planets, nor was anything else.

    But continually bringing it back to calling disagreements silly is precisely the problem I referred to previously.
    There has been arguments on this thread that have suggested that the Book of Nod could be interpreted as suggesting 30 clans (which it couldn’t because they were all named in that book), that any reference to the Book of Nod should be dismissed because it wasn’t “factual" (even though this point was never argued), that any reference made in the game to 13 Clans or anything else were “laughable” and liking the symbolism made you a "90s Goth Teen”. So, yes, these were silly arguments and belittling.

    And no, in the game lore as it still stands, 13 is not just a number - it is explicitly how many Clans there are. It is part of the symbolism of the game as CTPhipps just pointed out - it is a self-evident truth that the writers of the game deliberately made ’13' a motif in the game. There could be arguments as to why these things may have changed or be changeable as the game moves forward, and we have yet to see what the official line on the matter is, but to flat out deny it or claim that adjusting the number isn’t significant in the game lore, is a silly argument regardless of whether it is important or not to you.

    I wasn’t actually referring to your analogy about planets or dwarf planets when I pointed out about silly arguments. That wasn’t silly per se, it was just a bad analogy for the reasons given before.
    Last edited by Trippy; 11-22-2020, 04:19 AM.

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    • I edited to add more to that post and you should read it. I'm not going to continue this argument. I just ask that you stop trashing other people's opinions.

      You not understanding my arguments does not make them silly or nonsense. I took pains to insure they were explained as thoroughly as I could. I don't recall insulting you at any point although I apologize if I did.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post
        I just ask that you stop trashing other people's opinions.
        You may be conflating my responses to other posters comments with your own, somewhat, so you might look into that. Yet trying to insinuate that somebody doesn’t “understand” your arguments is also belittling, by the way, so you probably ought to take a note out of your own book too. I’ve made it clear what arguments I thought were silly, and why. Take it or leave it - makes little difference to me at this point.

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        • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
          You may be conflating my responses to other posters comments with your own, somewhat, so you might look into that. Yet trying to insinuate that somebody doesn’t “understand” your arguments is also belittling, by the way, so you probably ought to take a note out of your own book too. I’ve made it clear what arguments I thought were silly, and why. Take it or leave it - makes little difference to me at this point.
          The analogy was fine and actually relevant. If you don't like the fact that categories aren't engraved in stone but rather defined by people I don't know what to say. That applies as much to planets as it does to species as it does to fiction genres as it does to role playing games as it does to groups within role playing games as it does to clans and bloodlines specifically. Whatever the criteria you establish, they can be changed if in the future as needed or in the case of fiction, as wanted. You may not like that, but it won't change the fact that it's true, or that this was what the analogy was meant to illustrate.

          Also, you referencing the Book of Nod naming 13 clans meaning there must be 13 clans is actually a claim that the Book of Nod is a factual document within the World of Darkness. This isn't the same as saying that it's a factual document in the real world. You were saying that the lore from the Book of Nod needs to define what's allowed within the World of Darkness.

          Anyway, you've convinced me. I really want to see 14+ official clans all existing at the same time.

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          • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

            Anyone can prefer more or less crunch that's a personal matter, but my experience in running RPGs is that adding crunch has a tendency to put players off, whereas the fewer things between the players and what they want their characters to do, the more fun it's been for me. I had one player who simply did not click with the Mage combat rules and I had to do a flowchart for combat, and said player still needed help with combat.

            Also Fate can be as crunchy as you want. Dresden Files RPG vs. FAE Dresden Files RPG shows two ends of a spectrum in that regard. But overall, I want players to spend more time thinking about playing their characters than how many dice to roll in like 50 very specific different contexts.

            But also I love to roll multiple D10s and I'd even play Exalted again despite its heavy crunch.
            I played the Dresden files RPG in about 2013/14...once,the system was way to light and vague to be any fun, and that was the full FATE rules.

            Dark Heresy, Eclipse Phase, Warhammer fantasy, Pathfinder 1e etc are way more my level of detail, meaning previous editions of the WoD games we were using WoD combat, expanded social rules etc etc, when I was in a group that allowed that. But then It view rules as the skeleton the story hangs off, if the rules aren't robust the story falls apart, if the story isn't robust then nothing moves.
            Last edited by Taggie; 11-22-2020, 04:49 AM.

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            • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

              The analogy was fine and actually relevant. If you don't like the fact that categories aren't engraved in stone but rather defined by people I don't know what to say. That applies as much to planets as it does to species as it does to fiction genres as it does to role playing games as it does to groups within role playing games as it does to clans and bloodlines specifically. Whatever the criteria you establish, they can be changed if in the future as needed or in the case of fiction, as wanted. You may not like that, but it won't change the fact that it's true, or that this was what the analogy was meant to illustrate.
              I don’t care. That conversation finished a while ago. You may have an opinion. I might have another. We agreed to disagree, so why bring it up again? You’ve conflated the criticism of this with that of another poster, and now you are just obsessing over it.

              Also, you referencing the Book of Nod naming 13 clans meaning there must be 13 clans is actually a claim that the Book of Nod is a factual document within the World of Darkness. This isn't the same as saying that it's a factual document in the real world. You were saying that the lore from the Book of Nod needs to define what's allowed within the World of Darkness.
              Wrong. The factual issue is that somebody argued that the Book of Nod could be interpreted as stating there were 30 Clans rather than 13. This was factually untrue because 13 Clans are literally named in it - and this is what I pointed out. This does not mean anybody is claiming that the Book of Nod is a factual document, in game or out of it. A classic strawman argument.

              Anyway, you've convinced me. I really want to see 14+ official clans all existing at the same time.
              Great. You don’t get to decide.
              Last edited by Trippy; 11-22-2020, 05:00 AM.

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              • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                I played the Dresden files RPG in about 2013/14...once,the system was way to light and vague to be any fun, Dark Heresy, Eclipse Phase, Warhammer fantasy, Pathfinder 1e etc are way more my level of detail, meaning previous editions of the WoD games we were using WoD combat, expanded social rules etc etc, when I was in a group that allowed that. But then It view rules as the skeleton the story hangs off, if the rules aren't robust the story falls apart, if the story isn't robust then nothing moves.
                That's weird. I've never found that story needs crunchy rules or it falls apart. I've found some games' rules can actually force anticlimactic or other unsatisfying outcomes.

                Amber has some of the least crunchy rules ever written and is almost entirely handled narratively. It's been played for nearly three decades without a hitch, plus a new game using similar rules with a different setting was made as homage, and that gets played at AmberCon as well.

                PbtA and Fate both have a lot of games using their rules-light framework. There must be some reason people keep making them - maybe crunch isn't required after all and is a matter of personal preference.

                Also, the trend toward less crunch is good, actually.

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                • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

                  That's weird. I've never found that story needs crunchy rules or it falls apart. I've found some games' rules can actually force anticlimactic or other unsatisfying outcomes.

                  Amber has some of the least crunchy rules ever written and is almost entirely handled narratively. It's been played for nearly three decades without a hitch, plus a new game using similar rules with a different setting was made as homage, and that gets played at AmberCon as well.

                  PbtA and Fate both have a lot of games using their rules-light framework. There must be some reason people keep making them - maybe crunch isn't required after all and is a matter of personal preference.

                  Also, the trend toward less crunch is good, actually.
                  Which is why, originally I said 'a decent rule of thumb for me' rules light systems do not work for me, the trend towards less crunch is saving me money I guess, because I buy less games knowing I won't enjoy them just from the description.. I gave Fate a chance, but didn't enjoy it and I love the Dresdenverse, but not having rules for things, having them be only narrative flourish... well I want crunch for HOW taking powerful slow strikes Vs quick counter punches,. How bombastic boasting Vs quiet menace, how roguishly charming Vs sly and seductive....for me without the rules under those differences, they become mushy and story suffers, but again that's for me.

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                  • The thing is though the Storyteller system was simple as fuck though and didn't have any crunch at all; to mention in the first place since this discussion is centered around WoD in general. Just get a couple of d10 dice, set the difficulty via the ST or its static DC if noted via the game itself, and just roll. It didn't need "streamlining" since it was already easy as you could get in comparison to other systems. V5 "streamlines" (if you can call them that) weren't needed at all for the franchise.
                    Last edited by Shakanaka; 11-22-2020, 06:54 AM.


                    Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                    • RE-Storyteller system.
                      -I agree, for the most part. The storyteller system was beautifully simple. However, it did have it's flaws.
                      -An attack is dealt with in 3-4 rolls (Attack, Defence, Damage, Soak), rather than 1 or 2 (just "Take half" for Damage/Soak already)
                      Character creation was pretty imbalanced, Rising XP costs heavily rewarded characters who started with stuff like 1/4/1 , 4/1/3, 4/1/5 , 10 willpower, 1/1/1 in disciplines, 5's in few backgrounds... I really don't like the way V5 does it, but they're clearly trying to adress something that's a problem. IMO we needed flat rates for experience, except for Disciplines which v5 did right with '2/1/0'

                      RE-13 clans.
                      I think it interests us so much because it's Trippy. A guy who overwhelmingly praises the most drastic, controversial changes to V5. Yet the prospect of a 14th clan phases him. I had some analogies in mind but... I'm not very good with those. I think if I was so adamant about the number of clans nobody'd really care.


                      Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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                      • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                        Which is why, originally I said 'a decent rule of thumb for me' rules light systems do not work for me, the trend towards less crunch is saving me money I guess, because I buy less games knowing I won't enjoy them just from the description.. I gave Fate a chance, but didn't enjoy it and I love the Dresdenverse, but not having rules for things, having them be only narrative flourish... well I want crunch for HOW taking powerful slow strikes Vs quick counter punches,. How bombastic boasting Vs quiet menace, how roguishly charming Vs sly and seductive....for me without the rules under those differences, they become mushy and story suffers, but again that's for me.
                        Yeah, that's cool. Sorry got caught up in a different point.

                        Mage 2 could be very crunchy in its day.

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                        • For the 13 Clans part: I think it could become a rather interesting Plot-point in V5.
                          Lets do a little mindgame: Lets say, a Salubri Methuselah (5th or 4th gen) gets awakened by the whole Gehena-War thing (whatever it is). In a Ur-Shulgi style manner he brings back the Salubri to power and prominence (he could be a forgotten Healer, who looks at the 7 living Healers and calls BS to their tradition, or a warrior that unites the antitribu and the healers and so on). So now we have a rather strong clan Salubri that goes around calling itself a Clan. Since they were an OG Clan, they would be like 'we were there from the very start, do NOT question our position!".
                          So now all the factions and sub-factions have to deal with that. The more secular part of the Camarilla could not give a shit about if its 13 or 14 Clans and especially the Ventrue (who are also somewhat weakened through the whole Convention of Prague thing) could see an Opportunity to weakend their "best buddy" rivals Tremere and get some Salubri back to the Cam ('well, they were an original clan, what can we do...*g*').
                          The more religious parts of the Camarilla could call out the heresy of having 14 Clans and rip themselves apart over wich Clan has to go (possibly the Tremere, the Salubri or the Hecata).
                          Same with the Anarch and the Sabbath. You would have some Tremere 'loyalists' in all Sects that would not support the Salubri, while others finaly get some sweet revenge on those Tremere fuckers (did someone say Gangrel?).
                          So if you keep the whole what/who is a 'Clan' a little more vague in Meta, you can generate some sweet Plot.

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                          • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            RE-13 clans.
                            I think it interests us so much because it's Trippy. A guy who overwhelmingly praises the most drastic, controversial changes to V5. Yet the prospect of a 14th clan phases him. I had some analogies in mind but... I'm not very good with those. I think if I was so adamant about the number of clans nobody'd really care.
                            How I’ve missed your contributions to any given debate about V5....

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                            • Originally posted by TakeoChan View Post
                              For the 13 Clans part: I think it could become a rather interesting Plot-point in V5.
                              Lets do a little mindgame: Lets say, a Salubri Methuselah (5th or 4th gen) gets awakened by the whole Gehena-War thing (whatever it is). In a Ur-Shulgi style manner he brings back the Salubri to power and prominence (he could be a forgotten Healer, who looks at the 7 living Healers and calls BS to their tradition, or a warrior that unites the antitribu and the healers and so on). So now we have a rather strong clan Salubri that goes around calling itself a Clan. Since they were an OG Clan, they would be like 'we were there from the very start, do NOT question our position!".
                              So now all the factions and sub-factions have to deal with that. The more secular part of the Camarilla could not give a shit about if its 13 or 14 Clans and especially the Ventrue (who are also somewhat weakened through the whole Convention of Prague thing) could see an Opportunity to weakend their "best buddy" rivals Tremere and get some Salubri back to the Cam ('well, they were an original clan, what can we do...*g*').
                              The more religious parts of the Camarilla could call out the heresy of having 14 Clans and rip themselves apart over wich Clan has to go (possibly the Tremere, the Salubri or the Hecata).
                              Same with the Anarch and the Sabbath. You would have some Tremere 'loyalists' in all Sects that would not support the Salubri, while others finaly get some sweet revenge on those Tremere fuckers (did someone say Gangrel?).
                              So if you keep the whole what/who is a 'Clan' a little more vague in Meta, you can generate some sweet Plot.
                              I could see that happening as a plot device - but we would have to wait for what the developers choose to do, hence the need for an explanation. As it stands though, 14 Clans is incongruous with what has always been established in the game world before, and the symbolism remains significant enough to have it stated as such in the core rules. The re-emergence of the Salubri might well be a meta plot development moving forward.

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                              • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                                I had some analogies in mind but... I'm not very good with those.
                                I like your analogies!

                                Woman half naked to thaum. Vs. Woman naked to blood sorcery.

                                Dick the size of a child to Blood Potency 5+.

                                Lmao.

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