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  • Originally posted by blailton View Post
    Woman half naked to thaum. Vs. Woman naked to blood sorcery.
    I have no memory of this one.


    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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    • I think it's about time to move on from the 13 clan argument or at least make a new thread.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • Originally posted by Trippy View Post

        Baba Yaga has been used as a boogeyman figure in all sorts of media references and, whether you think it is silly or not, they have integrated into the WoD lore also.
        ..and the WW went to great length in v20 to correct the damage things like integrating baba yaga as a literal blood goddess methuselah ruling over irl post soviet with an iron fist did to the image and reputation of the game and its authors in the eyes of post-Soviet WoD players. There was a long discussion and promises from WW to avoid things like hilarious, cringy, blatant oversimplification of regional folklore integration into WoD to happen to the regions they know little about, and to do better research going forward to avoid cheese like that.

        I really like that approach, and seeing self-appointed authority in the forums defends the position which was proven wrong years ago by a whole post soviet WoD community is a nice reminder why we all, players, STs, publishers and authors, should stay vigilant and not allow the mistakes of the old era become 'the foundations of the lore'.

        Getting back to the topic, I hope to see the same respectful and innovative approach from Renegade.

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        • Originally posted by TakeoChan View Post
          For the 13 Clans part: I think it could become a rather interesting Plot-point in V5.
          Lets do a little mindgame: Lets say, a Salubri Methuselah (5th or 4th gen) gets awakened by the whole Gehena-War thing (whatever it is). In a Ur-Shulgi style manner he brings back the Salubri to power and prominence (he could be a forgotten Healer, who looks at the 7 living Healers and calls BS to their tradition, or a warrior that unites the antitribu and the healers and so on). So now we have a rather strong clan Salubri that goes around calling itself a Clan. Since they were an OG Clan, they would be like 'we were there from the very start, do NOT question our position!".
          So now all the factions and sub-factions have to deal with that. The more secular part of the Camarilla could not give a shit about if its 13 or 14 Clans and especially the Ventrue (who are also somewhat weakened through the whole Convention of Prague thing) could see an Opportunity to weakend their "best buddy" rivals Tremere and get some Salubri back to the Cam ('well, they were an original clan, what can we do...*g*').
          The more religious parts of the Camarilla could call out the heresy of having 14 Clans and rip themselves apart over wich Clan has to go (possibly the Tremere, the Salubri or the Hecata).
          Same with the Anarch and the Sabbath. You would have some Tremere 'loyalists' in all Sects that would not support the Salubri, while others finaly get some sweet revenge on those Tremere fuckers (did someone say Gangrel?).
          So if you keep the whole what/who is a 'Clan' a little more vague in Meta, you can generate some sweet Plot.

          I like the way you think, I wonder how many city's would have the Tremere locked in their house scared to come out and be eaten by a resurgent Clan Salubri. HokusPokus wont stop a broadsword from removing your head as you make your way to the local Elysium gathering. Political power means little to Sabbat rules of warfare, or lack there of.

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          • Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post

            ..and the WW went to great length in v20 to correct the damage things like integrating baba yaga as a literal blood goddess methuselah ruling over irl post soviet with an iron fist did to the image and reputation of the game and its authors in the eyes of post-Soviet WoD players. There was a long discussion and promises from WW to avoid things like hilarious, cringy, blatant oversimplification of regional folklore integration into WoD to happen to the regions they know little about, and to do better research going forward to avoid cheese like that.

            Asserting things on the internet doesn't make them real.

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            • Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post


              Asserting things on the internet doesn't make them real.

              You can reach out for comment to Natalie Manzurenko, the WW Russian/Ukrainian speaking community manager - she spearheaded those efforts to fix/avoid stuff like Baba Yaga and WW agreed. You can find her youtube channel, twitter and vk.com (post-Soviet fb) - she's an admin of the Vampire:The Masquerade group there.

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              • Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post


                I like the way you think, I wonder how many city's would have the Tremere locked in their house scared to come out and be eaten by a resurgent Clan Salubri. HokusPokus wont stop a broadsword from removing your head as you make your way to the local Elysium gathering. Political power means little to Sabbat rules of warfare, or lack there of.

                Probably not that many. The Tremere beat the Salubri back when the Salubri were an established clan, and the Tremere were universally reviled and hobbled at near every turn by those around them. The Tremere have better logistics for a war, and if the Salubri upped their scale they'd gain the ire of everyone who would've supported them. Even in the -FUCK TREMERE- environment of V5, it'd be a stretch to imagine the Salubri regularly winning any engagements they'd make. Though I suppose a sense of internal realism comes secondary to a plot full of juicy scandal.


                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post


                  Probably not that many. The Tremere beat the Salubri back when the Salubri were an established clan, and the Tremere were universally reviled and hobbled at near every turn by those around them. The Tremere have better logistics for a war, and if the Salubri upped their scale they'd gain the ire of everyone who would've supported them. Even in the -FUCK TREMERE- environment of V5, it'd be a stretch to imagine the Salubri regularly winning any engagements they'd make. Though I suppose a sense of internal realism comes secondary to a plot full of juicy scandal.

                  But are they not a broken fractured Clan themselves now? If the Council was destroyed or at the very least taken off the board and different factions are vying for power they seem to be as broken as the Salubri were with the healers and warriors getting divorced. Young Tremere don't have much to defend themselves from armed extremists and less of a power structure to fall back on. I think the odds have evened.

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                  • Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post


                    You can reach out for comment to Natalie Manzurenko, the WW Russian/Ukrainian speaking community manager - she spearheaded those efforts to fix/avoid stuff like Baba Yaga and WW agreed. You can find her youtube channel, twitter and vk.com (post-Soviet fb) - she's an admin of the Vampire:The Masquerade group there.

                    I'll be sure to do so after I get with the person from Egypt who wants to stop WW and the rest of the world from using Set so inappropriately.

                    I should add both need to wait for me to talk with the various clergy, since I promise you fa far far more Christians are offended by VTM wrapping blood sucking murderers up with their God, Jesus (Knights of the Bitter Ash, Grail Covenant, ETC...), the land of Nod, CAINE, Etc...
                    Last edited by Vamps Like Us; 11-22-2020, 12:12 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post


                      I'll be sure to do so after I get with the person from Egypt who wants to stop WW and the rest of the world from using Set so inappropriately.

                      I should add both need to wait for me to talk with the various clergy, since I promise you fa far far more Christians are offended by VTM wrapping blood sucking murderers up with their God, Jesus (Knights of the Bitter Ash, Grail Covenant, ETC...), the land of Nod, CAINE, Etc...
                      So you confirmed your argument about 'asserting on the internet only' was nonsense.

                      Unless you are Mark Rein Hagen or Justin Achilli or Jason Carl or any other WW big gun, I am not interested in such a discussion. Something tells me no one among them at WW would even conceive arguments like yours let alone allow such an attitude into their future books.
                      Last edited by Val_Nir; 11-22-2020, 12:27 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary
                        The Tremere have better logistics for a war
                        Not really, the Tremere have been screwed over this edition both in-verse and meta-wise. They're practically done as a Clan already. It doesn't even NEED to be the Salubri that re-upstage the Tremere out of influence, the Assamites being keyed into the Camarilla and taking over the Tremere's role soft-power wise by the writers is the knoll on their doorstep already. To boot this is the most fractious the Tremere has ever been and now they can be blood-bonded more easier by ANYONE and like mentioned before, the Council is out the window. The Tremere are finished by how they were handled.


                        Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                        • THE TREMERE WILL RISE AGAIN, JUST AS THE SABBAT SHALL RETURN TO SWALLOW THE ANARCHS, AND SET'S CHILDREN WILL BECOME HIS FOLLOWERS ONCE MORE, AND ALSO WE'LL BE ABLE TO DOMINATE INFORMATION OUT OF PEOPLE AGAIN....



                          Seriously though. If it weren't for meta-bullshit, the Tremere would absolutely shred if push came to shove. Omen war 2 would be an excellent Gehenna conflict, even if it were Tremere VS everyone else. The Tremere have all sorts of exciting cards to play.


                          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                          • Having the Tremere vs the Rest would actually make an interesting premise for a Chronicle.

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                            • Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post


                              I'll be sure to do so after I get with the person from Egypt who wants to stop WW and the rest of the world from using Set so inappropriately.

                              I should add both need to wait for me to talk with the various clergy, since I promise you fa far far more Christians are offended by VTM wrapping blood sucking murderers up with their God, Jesus (Knights of the Bitter Ash, Grail Covenant, ETC...), the land of Nod, CAINE, Etc...
                              This is nonsense. Everyone doesn't have to be on the same page for some people to take issue with how their folklore is represented.

                              Plus the difference in the case of Christianity is that Jesus is not literally depicted with a character sheet as a bloodsucking fiend of the night, and the beliefs in him as a vampire are clearly marked as heresies.

                              But also, you're shifting the goalposts and that's just rude.

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                              • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

                                This is nonsense. Everyone doesn't have to be on the same page for some people to take issue with how their folklore is represented.

                                Plus the difference in the case of Christianity is that Jesus is not literally depicted with a character sheet as a bloodsucking fiend of the night, and the beliefs in him as a vampire are clearly marked as heresies.

                                But also, you're shifting the goalposts and that's just rude.

                                No not really I just don't take it seriously as wide spread. A mythical creature (Baba Yaga) was turned into a different mythical creature (a Nosfuratu vampire) and did mean things. That is far less offensive than say Al Capone who could very easily have killed a relative of someone alive in the 90s playing the game is more offensive than Baba Yaga.

                                I'm Greek (by way of America) and I say Helen of Troy, part of my historical culture weather or not she was really real was a victim and portraying her as a monster who rules Chicago with a bloody fist is offensive to me as a Greek American. Do you agree we should get rid of Helena? Why not if I say it's offensive. Or is VTM a game and if i tiny amount of people are offended they can say not in my world. Forgive me if I find it hard to sympathise with the treatment of a fairy tale. Where do you draw the line while making a game in "Our world only darker"?

                                Gypsy and Ravnos were offensive stereotypes of real people, the current real life tragedy that was used for story fodder was a terrible and insensitive idea, People follow Christianity and are offended by VTM I've met some yet no one seems to care(and din't hte Knights drink from Christ and get super powers where they don't drink, wasn't the cup of Christ the point of 3 novels, and Cain has no stats, is he then somehow not part of the game for lacking a character sheet?). Baba Yaga is wait for it...Make Believe. So Baba Yaga was offensive to the point of killing her off? fine she's dead in cannon, and as I see it as a bad call, alive and well in mine.

                                I find Baba Yaga as a great offence so off, when Val Nir said he didn't want to talk about it with me I was happy to drop it. Now I will say this is so silly to me I don't see the point of talking about it so wont bother to respond to the offended that may quote me.

                                Baba Yaga...

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