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Modiphius is bo longer the publisher of vtm,Renegade studios is.

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  • No particular ethnicity. I was going with the idea of -If you attack everyone, you attack nobody- Literally any traveling group can host a Ravnos; A circus, a rockband, old folks who've retired onto a cruise ship, the cargo guys from some shitty cargo-wars show that for some reason exists-
    (but also, the point should be made that, in the case of more ethnically charged groups, they -do not want the Ravnos-, the Ravnos is just a force of nature that imposes itself onto the lives of others)


    Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      Well I can only hope it won't be the case because it sounds awesome.
      Yeah....but for those of us who actually play and have loved WtA since the long-long ago not so much.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Trippy
        Well, I refute that. This is the problem, as I see it: the game should not be promoting the idea that traveling people of a particular ethnicity - call them Gypsies, Irish Traveller’s or whatever - should not be stereotypically portrayed in this manner. It plays up to prejudices and is akin to having a "Jewish Clan", which most people would be in outcry about. If there is a Ravnos Clan, then there should be careful consideration of removing any reference to ethnic real world groups. They are still being persecuted around the world today.
        But then that would be silly. Despite Kindred being undead immortal creatures, almost all them used to be formerly human and come from human populations. You can't remove the Ravnos clan from the history of ancient India and subsequently Romani people thereafter, that's nonsense. There are multiple clans in VTM to be spotted with or parallel to real ethnic groups, so why does Ravnos have to be exception? Yes we should recognize the struggles and racism Romani people face IRL in Europe, but just blanket removing them from WoD history is a form of erasure and extremist I believe. Fix up the perceived problematic things, while keeping the clan as is.
        Last edited by Shakanaka; 11-14-2020, 06:49 PM.


        Jade Kingdom Warrior

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        • Originally posted by Damian May View Post

          Yeah....but for those of us who actually play and have loved WtA since the long-long ago not so much.
          My Werewolf fans are excited by it.

          Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

          But then that would be silly. Despite Kindred being undead immortal creatures, almost all them used to be formerly human and come from human populations. You can't remove the Ravnos clan from the history of ancient India and subsequently Romani people thereafter, that's nonsense. There are multiple clans in VTM to be spotted with or parallel to real ethnic groups, so why does Ravnos have to be exception? Yes we should recognize the struggles and racism Romani people face IRL in Europe, but just blanket removing them from WoD history is a form of erasure and extremist I believe. Fix up the perceived problematic things, while keeping the clan as is.
          When I was a young idiot, I had a hilarious opinion on this.

          "It's disgusting that the Romani people are associated with the criminal and vile Ravnos. They're already associated with the awesome Gangrel!"


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
            so why does Ravnos have to be exception?
            because people won't shut up about it, and I don't want to have "that discussion" everytime I want to pick ravnos in a game

            so, while I don't mind the whole romani baggage,
            I'd rather they got rid of it once and for all with a very clear statement on the innitiative and appropriate art of ravnos of different ethnicities,
            that way I can play my goddamn ravnos in peace


            -

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            • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

              But then that would be silly. Despite Kindred being undead immortal creatures, almost all them used to be formerly human and come from human populations. You can't remove the Ravnos clan from the history of ancient India and subsequently Romani people thereafter, that's nonsense. There are multiple clans in VTM to be spotted with or parallel to real ethnic groups, so why does Ravnos have to be exception? Yes we should recognize the struggles and racism Romani people face IRL in Europe, but just blanket removing them from WoD history is a form of erasure and extremist I believe. Fix up the perceived problematic things, while keeping the clan as is.
              You can do it because Vampire lore is a work of fiction, and is subject to whatever change the writers feel is appropriate. And actually, no, the original seven Clans were social stereotypes, not ethnic stereotypes. It was the add-on Clans that were problematic, particularly the Ravnos. The writing in V5, to this date, has attempted to alter some of the Clans moving forward - I wouldn’t see why it would be a problem for them to continue doing that with the Ravnos.

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              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                When I was a young idiot, I had a hilarious opinion on this.

                "It's disgusting that the Romani people are associated with the criminal and vile Ravnos. They're already associated with the awesome Gangrel!"
                The association was different, in as much as the Gangrel represented a romantic interpretation of ‘gypsies’ akin to hippies or the like from the 1960s - notably Jimi Hendrix formed a band called ‘Band of Gypsies’ as a nod to this type of idea. The Ravnos however, were a stereotype of thieves and rogue travelers, which is is the stereotype that actually pertains to the Romani people and led to their persecution.

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                • Caine and the Second generation has been associated with Abrahamic doctrine and ancient Mesopotamian peoples

                  Venture, Lasombra, Malkavians, and Toreador have been associated with the Romans

                  Brujah have been associated North Africans

                  Setites have been associated with Egyptians

                  Lasombra with Italians and/or the various subgroups within the Italian peninsula. Same with the Giovanni.

                  Cappadocians have been associated with the Greeks

                  Yes, I agree with you actually that Kindred DO embrace on social distinctions or what fancies them. Still however, WoD despite being a fictional universe, is one that is copy of the IRL one but with supernaturality. In context of this discussion, Vampires as I mentioned before COME from human populations and the Ravnos antediluvian (like all the others) moved after the Second City fell to certain geographical regions- [Ravnos] went to India and as such the Ravnos come from there. Why should the Ravnos be the exception from having some form of historical footprint when almost all of the Clans have? And just have the Ravnos be able to embrace anyone (where they even restricted to Romani people before in the first place?), fix up the any perceived "problematic" features of the Ravnos, and be done with it.

                  Tell me this, why must we remove the Romani element in Ravnos in the first place? This group barely gets anything on it in media besides morbid documentaries or in some highschool textbooks. Its cool to see them in the form of the Ravnos... just blanket wiping the Romani connection seems like a waste and erasure to me...
                  Last edited by Shakanaka; 11-14-2020, 08:44 PM.


                  Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    My Werewolf fans are excited by it.
                    I see no reason for them to be, the only info we have so far is population decimation and a return to 1st Ed stereotypes. And that the people who were enthused to bring indigenous and non-white voices to the project have been canned.

                    By ' my werewolf fans'...people in your vampire group? Not people you have chained up downstairs...right?
                    Last edited by Damian May; 11-14-2020, 08:01 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                      Caine and the Second generation has been associated with Abrahamic doctrine and ancient Mesopotamian peoples

                      Venture, Lasombra, Malkavians, and Toreador have been associated with the Romans

                      Brujah have been associated North Africans

                      Setites have been associated with Egyptians

                      Lasombra with Italians and/or the various subgroups within the Italian peninsula. Same with the Giovanni.

                      Cappadocians have been associated with the Greeks

                      Yes, I agree with you actually that Kindred DO embrace on social distinctions or what fancies them. Still however, WoD despite being a fictional universe, is one that is copy of the IRL one but with supernaturality. In context of this discussion, Vampires as I mentioned before COME from human populations and the Ravnos antediluvian (like all the others) moved after the Second City fell to certain geographical regions- [Ravnos] went to India and as such the Ravnos come from there. Why should the Ravnos be the exception from having some form historical footprint when almost all of the Clans have? And just have the Ravnos be able to embrace anyone (where they even restricted to Romani people before in the first place?), fix up the any perceived "problematic" features of the Ravnos, and be done with it.

                      Tell me this, why must we remove the Romani element in Ravnos in the first place? This group barely gets anything on it in media besides morbid documentaries or in some highschool texts. Its cool to see them in the form of the Ravnos... just blanket wiping the Romani connection seems like a waste and erasure to me...
                      The Roman Empire was multicultural. To say that a bunch of Clans were associated with it is not making any claims about ethnicity - merely showing the history of Clans in their social development through a particular era. Brujah is associated with a particular social stereotype, not North Africa in any meaningful way, and again this would just be in reference to history rather than ethnicity. The Setites, Lasombra, Giovanni and Cappadocians were add on Clans, which I referred to as problematic before. The Ravnos were more problematic because the ethnic stereotype represented is persecuted historically and still today.
                      Last edited by Trippy; 11-14-2020, 08:04 PM.

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                      • Let's be honest here, the original version of the clans were not very nuanced.

                        Brujah → Punk rebel vampires, first associated with the Phoenicians and later with the ancient Greeks, they also embody the D&D archetype.
                        Gangrel → Feral and animalistic vampires, first associated with nordic and romani people, they also embody the D&D barbarian archetype.
                        Tremere → Mage vampires (and direct port from the game Ars Magica), first associated with slavic cultures, they also embody (you guessed it...) the D&D Wizard archetype.

                        And so on. When Ravnos were introduced the same formulaic approach was used as well.

                        Ravnos → Scoundrel vampires, first associated with the romani people, they also embody the D&D Rogue archetype.

                        It was nothing surprising considering that in the early versions of the game this simplistic trend was applied to the creation of most of the clans, using real life stereotypes, even the most brutal and offensive ones, to give them character. Take the Giovanni for example:

                        Giovanni → Mafia vampires, first associated with italians and italian americans, they also embody the D&D Necromancer-Wizard archetype.

                        As the game evolved these simplistic and sometimes offensive portraits were changed, made deeper and more nuanced and this happened to the Ravnos as well. So the fact developers want to develop Ravnos further should not upset anyone imo.

                        P.S.

                        Fun fact: AFAIK WW debated killling the Malkavians instead of the Ravnos but in the end decided to off the tricksters because the Malks were considered too popular. A pity imo.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Haquim View Post
                          Let's be honest here, the original version of the clans were not very nuanced.

                          Brujah → Punk rebel vampires, first associated with the Phoenicians and later with the ancient Greeks, they also embody the D&D archetype.
                          etc.
                          The Brujah are not ethnically linked these places. These are just examples of historical cultures that the ‘rebel’ stereotype can be seen in. There is no D&D archetype to speak of for comparison. I’m getting bored with analyzing the rest, but the point is that they all are representative of social groups throughout history, rather than a real world ethnicity that has been persecuted because of the stereotype being presented of them. It’s really not that complex a distinction and, as long as the new Ravnos do not overtly tie the Clan’s background to an existing ethnic group I doubt there will be a problem moving forward. In the promotion, there wasn’t.

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                          • Originally posted by Damian May View Post

                            I see no reason for them to be, the only info we have so far is population decimation and a return to 1st Ed stereotypes. And that the people who were enthused to bring indigenous and non-white voices to the project have been canned.

                            By ' my werewolf fans'...people in your vampire group? Not people you have chained up downstairs...right?
                            No, my Werewolf game.

                            Basically, they're excited by the idea of doing Andromeda or Gene Hunt.

                            "We're going to rebuild the Garou Nation ourselves! Without the racism! New tribes! New totems! Peace love and claws!"


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • I liked the handling of the Ravnos in RAVNOS REVISED, Ethnic or not because making them the "Indian" clan essentially helped incorporate a billion human beings who were otherwise not represented in the game very well.

                              It made V:TM more ethnically and culturally diverse as the Ravnos flat out rejected the whole Caine myth the same way the Followers of Set did They weren't the ONLY Clans in India but they were very strongly linked to the Rakshasa legend and I appreciated making vampires incorporate another type of monster into their ranks as it, again, broadened their fundamental mythology.

                              Instead of just making a new monster, we showed a different way vampires could represent another creature of mythology.

                              Were some of the ideas terrible? Yes, Ravnos castes are incredibly stupid, but most of it was really solid.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                                The Brujah are not ethnically linked these places. These are just examples of historical cultures that the ‘rebel’ stereotype can be seen in. There is no D&D archetype to speak of for comparison. I’m getting bored with analyzing the rest, but the point is that they all are representative of social groups throughout history, rather than a real world ethnicity that has been persecuted because of the stereotype being presented of them. It’s really not that complex a distinction and, as long as the new Ravnos do not overtly tie the Clan’s background to an existing ethnic group I doubt there will be a problem moving forward. In the promotion, there wasn’t.
                                I never mentioned any places, and I very much doubt the "rebel archetype" is somehow reflected in ancient greek culture or in phoenician culture. What I said is that all the clans were clumsily done when they were first conceived, often resorting to stereotypes. The Ravnos got the gypsy/rogue deal. Some people find that offensive. I don't care much for politically correctness. To me the way this was done was uninspired and simplistic though, a quick and dirty way to give clans a physiognomy instead of going deeper, building something interesting and unique. I was very glad when clans were revised and now I'm glad Ravnos are going to be developed even further.

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