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  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    No, my Werewolf game.

    Basically, they're excited by the idea of doing Andromeda or Gene Hunt.

    "We're going to rebuild the Garou Nation ourselves! Without the racism! New tribes! New totems! Peace love and claws!"

    You run a WtA game? Cos you seemed like you'd never had much to do with it based on your posts in the Werewolf forum.

    That basically just sounds like they want to play a different game, so no need to implode the old one.....I guess after V5 I'm just tired of people who express their 'love' for a game by delighting in tearing it down and building something very different in its place.
    Last edited by Damian May; 11-14-2020, 09:28 PM.

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    • Originally posted by Damian May View Post
      You run a WtA game? Cos you seemed like you'd never had much to do with it based on your posts in the Werewolf forum.

      That basically just sounds like they want to play a different game, so no need to implode the old one.....I guess after V5 I'm just tired of people who express their 'love' for a game by delighting in tearing it down and building something very different in its place.
      It's not my favorite but, yes, I do in fact run the occassional werewolf game. My last solo-ST game was an adaptation of UNDER A BLOOD RED MOON and RAGE ACROSS NEW YORK. Generally, I'm not as big a fan of it as I am other games but I admit that's because I primarily love Pentex and the Fera over the Garou.

      #TeamFera.

      Mostly, I co-ST with my friend Michael Suttkus who co-wrote I WAS A TEENAGE WEREDEER with me. He loves Glass Walkers, Children of Gaia, and Mokole.

      Generally, I love W:TA's politics and feudalism in Modern Era stuff as well as the big epic Beowulf-esque tales of heroism and ancient blood conflicts. But I admit, I strongly prefer the early stuff over the Revised.

      The games I run in order are:

      1. Vampire
      2. Mage
      3. Changeling
      4. Werewolf

      And that's it. I've been meaning to run Wraith and Hunter some day.
      Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-14-2020, 09:51 PM.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • Originally posted by Damian May View Post

        That basically just sounds like they want to play a different game, so no need to implode the old one.....I guess after V5 I'm just tired of people who express their 'love' for a game by delighting in tearing it down and building something very different in its place.
        Never got that either. If you like the game, the setting, the themes, the story, the aesthetics, the trappings, then, why the urge to rewrite it into something barely resembling the original? If you liked some of the core ideas, but not the actual execution, might as well create something new instead. Hell, that's exactly why CofD exists and has a solid fanbase...


        If nothing worked, then let's think!

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        • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
          But, fffff... The Salubri, Like the Capadocians, were meant to die. They're analogies for how independent, relatively nice small-business types will get bodied by aggressive and monopolistic, well organized forces. And having Salubri, a clan synonymous with Goloconda and being nice, 'a thing' again it'd just suck the edge out of the setting. I'd welcome the Antitribe getting big, but the Healers best work as Bygones and I've never been on board with the watchers.
          Damn it - someone is wrong on the internet.

          The Salubri were not created, in a meta-textual sense, to be analogies for the small business crushed by big business. They were created in 1st edition, in the very early days of White Wolf, to make the Tremere appear even worse. The Salubri and Saulot were designed to be good, so the Tremere became wickeder in their destruction and persecution of the Salubri. Even then the idea of "good" vampires was controversial among the White Wolf staff.

          And good is relative and good does not equal nice, or passive. It reflects a limited thinking about morality and ethics to assume good is nice and/or passive.

          A solid example of a "healer" Salubri is probably Dr. House - an accomplished medical doctor, who saves lives, and is also a miserable soul, a drug addict and an insufferable ass to everyone around him. A solid example of an "anti-tribue" Salubri might be Hannibal Lecter as depicted in the series Hannibal - also an accomplished medical doctor, who could saves lives, and is also a total monster who destroys the lives everyone around him and literally consumes people. An expectation that the Salubri are Piffany from the Nodwick comics is utterly missing a lot of game play possibilities.

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          • Originally posted by PMárk View Post

            Never got that either. If you like the game, the setting, the themes, the story, the aesthetics, the trappings, then, why the urge to rewrite it into something barely resembling the original? If you liked some of the core ideas, but not the actual execution, might as well create something new instead. Hell, that's exactly why CofD exists and has a solid fanbase...
            Exactly. These are some points I went over in the thread Taggie made in the "Paths, and other Sabbat related shenanigans" thread. So much mechanics and themes have been ripped and strewn from VTR to VTM the game is practically unrecognizable.


            Jade Kingdom Warrior

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            • Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post
              Thats funny...my greatest hope is reverses everything to revised status lol

              Oh god that would be awesome.

              Revised is still my favourite edition. It was the most complex and most mature, and the one with most tool for the storyteller.
              Because there was this good balance between what the writers told you about how the game was meant to be played and what the gave you to play.
              Yeah, Achilli told you that Paths sucks and most Sabbats are on humanity, but then it was the edition that gave us Chaining the Beast, a whole book about paths, and it was also the time where the Dharma of the Kue-jin were developed, and the Devil Tigers mentality and development was a great framework for paths, and on the Dark Ages line it was full of book about the Roads that could be used as tools for the modern times.
              Achilli told you not to play the katana and trenchcoat game, but then it was the edition that gave you thing like Caine's Chosen, Archon and Templars and Midnight Siege, aka the perfect guide to play katana and trenchcoat.

              So there was this good balance, the writers told you how they think you should play and how the themes of vampires should be used, but still they didn't neutered, they gave you also a wide tool box to use your flavour, even if they "disapproved".

              The only things that were sub-par were the City Books, which in my opinion were not on the same level of those of the 2nd Edition.
              Last edited by Undead rabbit; 11-15-2020, 12:18 PM.

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              • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                They were created in 1st edition, in the very early days of White Wolf, to make the Tremere appear even worse. The Salubri and Saulot were designed to be good, so the Tremere became wickeder in their destruction and persecution of the Salubri.
                This is less a disagreement and more a question of how many layers you're looking into things. Yes, you're correct. This logic of yours can also apply to the Giovanni seeming more wicked for taking out the Capadocians that spent most of their time chilling in the corner not worried all that much about politics. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong. Both victors are the big mean organized groups with Dominate, and both victims are isolated, introspective types that have Auspex and Fortitude to sum up how they behaved as vampires. Death of the author and all. Unless you can refute me proper, I'm not wrong here.

                The end result is the same in any case: The Salubri were born to die. They held a fragile position when they were active, and lost the moment anyone bothered to deal with them. It'd be fucking inappropriate* to bring them back, as anything other than the 180 transformation of the Warriors.


                (*That said, V5 runs on the logic that humanity is good and vampires are bad and should suffer, so OG Salubri do fit the themes of this edition quite well)


                Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  I liked the handling of the Ravnos in RAVNOS REVISED, Ethnic or not because making them the "Indian" clan essentially helped incorporate a billion human beings who were otherwise not represented in the game very well.

                  It made V:TM more ethnically and culturally diverse as the Ravnos flat out rejected the whole Caine myth the same way the Followers of Set did They weren't the ONLY Clans in India but they were very strongly linked to the Rakshasa legend and I appreciated making vampires incorporate another type of monster into their ranks as it, again, broadened their fundamental mythology.
                  .
                  I acknowledge your argument here is valid.

                  But 'Ethnic' and national clans, for the most part, are stupid. Only thing more stupid is All-Female lines.
                  So, Yeah, a Tzmisce likely isn't going to go far from his sire if they don't have a good reason to, especially considering the jar of dirt weakness. But I'd argue that's a fairly small factor.

                  First off, clans play off eachother. A city filled with Giovanni just really bad for everyone involved. Because there's nobody to sell their services too. It's a city filled with electricians, but no plumbers. The Economy is shit. Vampire cities work best when there's a vareity of clans, making everyone richer as a result of having access to more services; your Brujah do the heavy fighting, the gangrel or Ravnos secure the border, the nosferatu and malkavians have different strengths in keeping others informed, The Ventrue keep the people in line while the Toreador keep vampires in touch with the people. The Tzmisce play doctor and the Tremere offer magic and... It's just a good ecosystem, really. Clans work really well as social stereotypes, because that's what they're meant to be. Each clan has a social roll to play.

                  The Assamites are the one clan that makes sense trying to make their own little eco-system, because of the castes. Because of that, it makes sense that they have strong associations to a region of the world. Personally, I think you could take their self 'described roll as 'judges' and have them try to work as "federal" police.

                  The Giovanni didn't work. Nobody cared for them outside their own chronicles. It's a good thing they became a whole bunch of international, incestuous families, rather than a single cousinfuck, but it still wasn't enough. They need to be integrated with the rest of vampire society, not clobbed together as 'the hecata' to continue sitting in their dunce corner.
                  So all this said I really don't like the way the so-called "Old-Clan" Tzmisce are used. They're just racist versions of Ventrue.
                  The Followers of Set worked because they were everywhere and deliberately tried to spread themselves. The CoS is dumb.

                  So, Back to the Ravnos . I think their indian stuff is well done, but It's torture to think why are they Indian? Why are they normal in India? Why aren't they nomadic in India, when their weakness is the same? I have some answers, though they aren't prefect. But when WW made Ravnos the Indian clan, they left the western Ravnos to rot as evil gypsies.


                  Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                  There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                  • Eh, the Ravnos are only nomadic with those tied to Nomadic Romani. Romani aren't naturally nomadic, they just got kicked around the globe by racism. In real life, when they could settle down, they did. Hence why the Ravnos in India are settled because they're the regional powerhouse.



                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                      Eh, the Ravnos are only nomadic with those tied to Nomadic Romani. Romani aren't naturally nomadic, they just got kicked around the globe by racism. In real life, when they could settle down, they did. Hence why the Ravnos in India are settled because they're the regional powerhouse.
                      But the Ravnos are nomadic not because of tying themselves to Romani, but because they get persecuted for addiction to vice. They routinely shake the hornet's nest, it's their curse. The Ravnos of India don't have a different weakness, so they shouldn't be settling down.


                      Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                      There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                        Eh, the Ravnos are only nomadic with those tied to Nomadic Romani.
                        Which is why its a problem the western Ravnos became so thematically tied to the Romani in the game. Their are plenty of traveling groups for the western Ravnos to follow around. But that is an old argument.

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                        • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary;n1423999

                          First off, clans play off eachother. A city filled with Giovanni just really bad for everyone involved. Because there's nobody to sell their services too. It's a city filled with electricians, but no plumbers. The Economy is shit. Vampire cities work best when there's a vareity of clans, making everyone richer as a result of having access to more services; your Brujah do the heavy fighting, the gangrel or Ravnos secure the border, the nosferatu and malkavians have different strengths in keeping others informed, The Ventrue keep the people in line while the Toreador keep vampires in touch with the people. The Tzmisce play doctor and the Tremere offer magic and... It's just a good ecosystem, really. [B
                          Clans work really well as social stereotypes, because that's what they're meant to be. Each clan has a social roll to play[/B].
                          Well then it's a good thing that mono-Clan cities aren't a thing so it's a pointless argument.

                          The Giovanni didn't work. Nobody cared for them outside their own chronicles. It's a good thing they became a whole bunch of international, incestuous families, rather than a single cousinfuck, but it still wasn't enough. They need to be integrated with the rest of vampire society, not clobbed together as 'the hecata' to continue sitting in their dunce corner.
                          Admittedly I've never read the original Giovanni write-up and it's been several years since I've read their original Clan Book, but the Giovanni have long be established as their 'neutral' position to make deals with both the Camarilla and Sabbat. Several Giovanni characters have been noted as serving an emissary role to one of the Sects. Which itself is something that has continued with the Hecata. In fact they make multiple comments about the Giovanni continuing to be the public face of the Clan as by in large, the other Kindred haven't realized that the extent to which the Clan has changed. Further, the other Hecata families are using that ignorance to cut their own deals with other vampires, thinking that they are dealing with someone separate from the rebranded Giovanni.

                          They are a part of Kindred society just as the other Independents were. Hell, the Giovanni were likely the most integrated of the Independents in Cam and Sabbat cities. Yes, they didn't directly involve themselves in the politics of the local politics of the Cam/Sabbat but by being a 'neutral' third-party gave them advantages. Sure there's no Giovanni Princes, Barons or Bishops but they can still wield great power and influence in their cities. And they don't have to worry about having a target painted on their back by rival sects or ambitious rivals (well at least those outside their Clan). Further if said city falls to a rival sect, it's unlikely they will be affected by the fighting or targeted by the victor afterwards.

                          And for the Hecata, they have another thing to worry about, the neutrality of the Promise running out in a handful of years. removing all their protections and potentially putting them into a war situation with the Camarilla. So I wouldn't be surprised if as things go on, the Hecata become more and more directly involved in Kindred politics as a result of this fear.

                          So, Back to the Ravnos . I think their indian stuff is well done, but It's torture to think why are they Indian? Why are they normal in India? Why aren't they nomadic in India, when their weakness is the same? I have some answers, though they aren't prefect. But when WW made Ravnos the Indian clan, they left the western Ravnos to rot as evil gypsies.
                          Why aren't the Ravnos nomadic in India? Probably because they were the first Cainities in the region and able to set themselves up there before anyone else showed up.


                          Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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                          • Created a new Clan in V5 thread for discussion of this: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...cussion-thread


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • I still don't get the "vampires are too weak in v5" some in here say. I respect the opinion, of course. But Vampires in v5,can Manipulate an entire room of people into whwtever the hell they want,they can make the ground shake with a punch,climb through walls predict the future,motherfuckimg fly. I'd argue the only true nerf was Thaumaturrgy and such a nerf was needed.

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                              • Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post


                                Oh god that would be awesome.

                                Revised is still my favourite edition. It was the most complex and most mature, and the one with most tool for the storyteller.
                                Because there was this good balance between what the writers told you about how the game was meant to be played and what the gave you to play.
                                Yeah, Achilli told you that Paths sucks and most Sabbats are on humanity, but then it was the edition that gave us Chaining the Beast, a whole book about paths, and it was also the time where the Dharma of the Kue-jin were developed, and the Devil Tigers mentality and development was a great framework for paths, and on the Dark Ages line it was full of book about the Roads that could be used as tools for the modern times.
                                Achilli told you not to play the katana and trenchcoat game, but then it was the edition that gave you thing like Caine's Chosen, Archon and Templars and Midnight Siege, aka the perfect guide to play katana and trenchcoat.

                                So there was this good balance, the writers told you how they think you should play and how the themes of vampires should be used, but still they didn't neutered, they gave you also a wide tool box to use your flavour, even if they "disapproved".

                                The only things that were sub-par were the City Books, which in my opinion were not on the same level of those of the 2nd Edition.
                                but we already have revised,revised didn't cease to exist. Don't you want something new?

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