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  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I am hoping for some non-psychotic Tzimisce. A lot of Vicissitude's problems stem from the idea of body essentialism and the idea that it is UNNATURAL and WRONG to modify it.

    Very prevelent in the 90s.

    Obviously, a lot of people view body modification as not only a good thing but as a fundamental human right in the 21st century.
    Play up the transhumanism of Metamorphosis, for that aspect

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    • considering Tzimisce can turn you into living furniture,
      that 4th or 5th gen Tremere that is trapped in eternal agony in some Tzimisce dungeon,
      the zchlacta made from Caitiff and thinbloods by Andrei in Bloodlines and the living tzimisce artifact that allows you to store blood in the same game...

      I think we're far from "body essentialism"


      -

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      • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

        Play up the transhumanism of Metamorphosis, for that aspect
        I actually would be interested in seeing how Tzimicse who aren't Sabbat would evolve in the Anarchs and Camarilla. It would be interesting.

        The value of Vicissitude to preserving the Masquerade is FANTASTIC.

        "The Second Inquisition knows that I was Grover Cleveland!"

        "Let me fix that."


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • First of all, I am happy with Justin Achilli taking over the WoD and the Sabbat book in particular. It's funny that two of the most vocal voices on the matter of Sabbat in this forum both don't like his approach for opposite reasons. Either 2ed was better, or the V5 was better than Revised.
          My opinion is that Revised was a miracle to the sect and its' playability, maturity and depth. It allowed all playstyles, I want it to be back and I doubt it will or rather can happen in V5 reality.
          Yes, I must confess I still miss my second edition Vampiric Knight DnD dark and pompous fun. However, replacing the depth of Revised sabbat with it simply isn't worth it.

          In any case, here are my wishes and my predictions based on what we had in V20, BJD and from the scraps of info from V5 sources on the Sabbat:

          - Sabbat is split into 2 parts: gehenna crusaders who are the majority and those who stayed, who are the minority. That means that those who stayed behind in the Sabbat domains in North America and Europe were already a minority before being further decimated by the Second Inquisition and subsequent Camarilla and Anarch attacks.

          Therefore the Sabbat will be playable either as
          - both who stayed and who went to war. Things stay as close to Revised as possible. There are few hidden domains across 'western world' regions, and there is all out vampiric warfare in MENA, Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia. Probably two different parts of the book would cover both groups and how to play each. Either you want to play a V5' dramatic neonate, a Revised' fanged Don Corleone or a 2ed' Queen of Night, it'd all be there.

          - only those who stayed, excluding the crusaders and leaving them in MENA. My least favorite, but the most possible scenario if the authors really want to stay in line with V5 mood and theme. I hope, however, that Achilli's appointment indicates the possible change and shift in V5 themes (more metaplot and global sectarian warfare, that is). But more on that later. Book-wise, it will be quite similar to other V5 sects. Playing only as a neonate trapped in a horrifying semi-Satanic sect, paraphrasing a popular song: "I'm just a regular everyday normal bloodsucker". This time with Vaulderie though.

          - only the crusaders, which means they returned from MENA to reclaim what was lost by those who stayed. My favorite scenario. Those who stayed are either irrelevant, used as NPCs akin to the Seven Fires pack to cosplay the Belial Brood from Requiem, or are incorporated into the crusaders' "reconquista" as auxiliaries and skirmishers. Thematically, the sect would play more like the Lost Tribe/Black Hand from Revised, but even more subtle and reclusive than before.
          That is what would set it apart from other sects, for me, at least. I know the common depiction of three sects puts Sabbat into the Clergy spot. Who said, then, that the Clergy cannot be militant? Especially if it's a vampiric Clergy with a few thousand years old death cult at it's core.

          Factions will become non-existent, except for the crusader/noncrusader division.
          Paths will become paramount, both story- and player-wise. They will become more complex, taxing and elaborate, probably with some sub-paths as regional deviations. They will determine much more in the Sabbat's unlife than before. I would go as far as saying they will serve as directions or even Dharmas from KotE, essentially dwarfing the importance of the clans. Path advancement will become equal or even merge with the advancement along the sect's hierarchy, probably indicating the formation of 'castes' in the sect. I don't think that the Revised' humanity for Sabbat will make a return - all the turmoils the sect has been through would likely wipe out all who clinged to their mortal experience or have been reluctant to uphold the sect's cause for any other reason.
          I als don't exclude the eventual contact and sharing of ideas and information on vampiric spirituality between Sabbat and the dudes like Searing Wind from KotE who are likely involved in the asura's attacks all over India and the Iranian plato.
          The rank of the Priscus will cease to exist. I have some other thoughts on the structural changes, but this one is the first which comes to mind. There will be simply no place or time for Sabbat elders to stay as reluctant sages occasionally lending their aid to the aims of the sect as it becomes more hardcore and focused on it's goals.

          Clans will erode, as even the core clans have already become more disparate and divided. The Fourth Civil war, Lasombra defection, ability to play as non-Sabbat Tzimisce which will likely be offered in the announced Companion book, the antitribu elders leaving along with the Lasombra, etc. Clans and bloodlines will become meaningless overtime with the mass vaulderies which are going to unite the whole sect into one vampiric 'nation' - another big fulfillment moment along with the whole gehenna crusade. This will both strengthen the links between packs, and further close ranks from the outsiders and opportunists.

          Regardless of the path chosen (no pun intended), Sabbat will become more hardline both on ideology and hierarchy than ever before, in no small part due to a possible Loyalist defection. I am 95% sure there will be no such faction or it's inheritors in the new Sabbat.
          In regards to locations and domains, I predict we will see LOTS and LOTS of undercover stuff, to the point of story hooks of packs coming across as anarch coteries or Camarilla closed clubs. Probably, even Princes, Barons or Primogen of certain cities will appear to be Sabbat in disguise. This 1) would separate V5 Sabbat from the previous iterations of the sect completely 2) create tons of new and thrilling story opportunities without removing the brutality of the sect - just making it more focused and precised, therefore even more terrifying. A diminished sect forced into seclusion and underground resistance becomes even more dangerous - it'd be both funny and amazing to see Sabbat's comeback with their lessons learned after such (seemingly) crushing defeats. Less numerous, more subtle, more coherent and devilishly intellectual sect which strikes as a stiletto rather than a sledgehammer of previous editions would be a welcome change.

          To all the critics of the edition changes: V5 and the Gehenna Crusade are a blessing for the Sabbat and it's continued existence, not a threat. The fact that the crusade takes place in the war torn Middle East and Eastern Europe this gives the author more than enough time for them to do the Sabbat justice for when they return. After years of such open and terrible conflict the Sabbat will return changed and likely far more deadly.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Val_Nir
            Clans will erode, as even the core clans have already become more disparate and divided. The Fourth Civil war, Lasombra defection, ability to play as non-Sabbat Tzimisce which will likely be offered in the announced Companion book, the antitribu elders leaving along with the Lasombra, etc. Clans and bloodlines will become meaningless overtime with the mass vaulderies which are going to unite the whole sect into one vampiric 'nation' - another big fulfillment moment along with the whole gehenna crusade. This will both strengthen the links between packs, and further close ranks from the outsiders and opportunists.
            Wait, what? So you want to pull a Hecata on the Sababat? lolno. Why the hell would they merge into one big Clan for? The Sabbat is a SECT, not a CLAN..

            Also no, what V5 did to the Sabbat is the worst they've possibly could've done to it. The Sabbat didn't need the stupid Gehenna War thing, it was only made up to kill off the Sabbat ungracefully. I wonder how Achilli is going to even salvage it.


            Jade Kingdom Warrior

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            • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

              Wait, what? So you want to pull a Hecata on the Sababat? lolno. Why the hell would they merge into one big Clan for? The Sabbat is a SECT, not a CLAN..

              Also no, what V5 did to the Sabbat is the worst they've possibly could've done to it. The Sabbat didn't need the stupid Gehenna War thing, it was only made up to kill off the Sabbat ungracefully. I wonder how Achilli is going to even salvage it.
              I am talking about possibilities which will likely be presented as a general direction to the Sabbat players and storytellers. I am considering the previous developments of V5 and they all point to the fact that there will be no more sect specific clans or bloodlines. That, along with heavy core clan losses, will drastically change the sect's approach towards clans and their importance. Think about it. A half of Number one clan, the clan preaching about Gehenna and the fight against antediluvians, the founding clan which blabbered during the centuries on how it is important to have strong leaders in the eternal war against antediluvians, cowardly jumps ship the moment the sect is about to fulfill their ultimate purpose. I bet all the other clans and bloodlines would raise the question of importance of having a designated leading clan.
              'Clans will erode' = 'importance of clans will be overshadowed by the importance of Path you are on and your pack's faithfulness and victories in the war', in other words.

              The second argument does not make sense at all. We are discussing a given Sabbat book. It is in development. The sect will not only not be just a Baba Yaga for other bloodsuckers - it will be fully playable and detailed. That all means the Sabbat either succeeds or simply survives the Crusade. There is no alternative future to suggest metaplot wise.

              How he's going to salvage it? That they succeeded in eating elders and methuselah (Not Antediluvians - they will likely remain a mystery), what else do you need? Welcome the new Sabbat, tough as nails and pumped up on countless diableries in the MENA and Europe. I really see no reason in crying about the crusade, it's awesome. I expect to have an option to play one, actually.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post



                How he's going to salvage it? That they succeeded in eating elders and methuselah (Not Antediluvians - they will likely remain a mystery), what else do you need? Welcome the new Sabbat, tough as nails and pumped up on countless diableries in the MENA and Europe. I really see no reason in crying about the crusade, it's awesome. I expect to have an option to play one, actually.
                Them to be a rival, continent spanning territory holding rival to the camerilla, with the anarchs being ground to dust and irrelevance under the weight of that war. In other words for the massively insulting, malicous and disgusting edge lording of the vampire isis war to have never happened.
                Last edited by Taggie; 11-20-2020, 11:31 AM.

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                • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                  Them to be a rival, continent spanning territory holding rival to the camerilla, with the anarchs being ground to dust and irrelevance under the weight of that war. In other words for the massively insulting, malicous and disgusting edge lording of the vampire isis war to have never happened.
                  So essentially you mean a 180 turn to the Revised state of affairs. Welp, not gonna happen, mate. We both know it. The difference is, I am happy with the changes.

                  massively insulting, malicous and disgusting edge lording of the vampire isis war
                  An awesome storytelling "opportunity for those STs who like their chronicles uncomfortably close to real life issues of faith, terrorism and the price of war." Direct quotation from the BJD Sabbat section on a possible Crusade chronicle.
                  "Just remember - Sabbat do not care about the conflicts and affairs of mortals involved in the war" - same place.
                  When I look at these, I see an option to play something close in the mood and style to Sicario, No Country For the Old Men, Come and See, Beasts of no Nation. Are these edgy? No, they are gritty, dark and mature, with a great depth and focus on the perturbation of human consciousness subjected to extreme shock and abuse of global crime, corruption and war.
                  Did you consider that maybe the problem is not with V5 books after all?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post

                    So essentially you mean a 180 turn to the Revised state of affairs. Welp, not gonna happen, mate. We both know it. The difference is, I am happy with the changes.



                    An awesome storytelling "opportunity for those STs who like their chronicles uncomfortably close to real life issues of faith, terrorism and the price of war." Direct quotation from the BJD Sabbat section on a possible Crusade chronicle.
                    "Just remember - Sabbat do not care about the conflicts and affairs of mortals involved in the war" - same place.
                    When I look at these, I see an option to play something close in the mood and style to Sicario, No Country For the Old Men, Come and See, Beasts of no Nation. Are these edgy? No, they are gritty, dark and mature, with a great depth and focus on the perturbation of human consciousness subjected to extreme shock and abuse of global crime, corruption and war.
                    Did you consider that maybe the problem is not with V5 books after all?
                    Given WWs early issues, ones that give context to what came later, and the Chechnya thing as well, the goal was edgelording, and playing down of real human atrocities.

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                    • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                      Given WWs early issues, ones that give context to what came later, and the Chechnya thing as well, the goal was edgelording, and playing down of real human atrocities.
                      Care reminding what happened to those chapters and their authors? are they working on VtM still? on the Sabbat book in particular? Just a hint: w/o Achilli there would be no attempt on playable Sabbat whatsoever.

                      For the context of what's going to come later, check out BJD Sabbat section. Much more detailed and reliable than the early V5 attempts (which were retconned and edited anyway). The fact that you focus on the failed things which were removed from the books and refer to them as what we could expect for the sect book makes me guess again that the issue is not with the books.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post

                        Care reminding what happened to those chapters and their authors? are they working on VtM still? on the Sabbat book in particular? Just a hint: w/o Achilli there would be no attempt on playable Sabbat whatsoever.

                        For the context of what's going to come later, check out BJD Sabbat section. Much more detailed and reliable than the early V5 attempts (which were retconned and edited anyway). The fact that you focus on the failed things which were removed from the books and refer to them as what we could expect for the sect book makes me guess again that the issue is not with the books.
                        My issue is with everyone who was involved at the start of this edition. My luck of hope is based on the complete radioactive dumpster fire they made of the setting and lore, and every book I have seen so far either makes it worse, or keeps it the same. What I have seen of cults so far...well just say I disliked Loresheets, now I flat loathe them. Oh and Achilli's involvement is also a source of dread, given the wrecking ball he took to the sect with Revised, and his statements in interviews about his hatred for the sabbat and it's players, old now I admit, but still.
                        Last edited by Taggie; 11-20-2020, 02:04 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          Good Uses of Vicissitidue 1-3 raw:
                          -Age-up characters for the masquerade
                          -Give people, vampires and their retainers, new identities
                          -Perfectly provide the appearance of another without needing to worry about the shortcomings of obfuscate.
                          -Improve appearance for better feeding.
                          -faking deaths.
                          -Give tattoos to vampires who otherwise would have to use those blasted sorcerers, who only have black ink, and are probably setting up a spell to grant eternal power over you.
                          -Sex reassignment, and other attempts at tackling body dysphoria.
                          -Making luxury ghouls and designer pets.
                          -Confusing the fuck out of zoologists
                          -Increasing the loyalty and social effectiveness of your ghouls.
                          -Make offers people don't want to refuse.
                          -Making cults out of your ability.
                          -Turning your insides into a better storage place.

                          Kinda-shitty uses RAW:
                          Combat
                          Making Combat Ghouls.


                          Basically, having Vicissitude is a magnet for wealth and prestation. You are offering a valuable service to people who benefit greatly from it. The fact that you can't really create good combat monsters RAW is more than made up for by your ability to resource ghouls who are more loyal and financially better equipped.

                          The Identity of Vicissitude, to me a person who loves the real tzmisce, is completely different from Protean. Vicissitude is a surgeon's power. an Artists's power. It's a calling. A profession as much as Thaumaturgy or necromancy. Protean is canonically just someone calling upon the beast to make temporary transformations for utility.

                          This is an excellent post for just some of the amazing uses of Vicissitude. I actually thought it was way too powerful, if anything the physical changes should revert on the new day like hair growing back when it comes to vampires. Level 3 Discipline < Cruse of Caine. Vicissitude is no less broken than Obtenebration or Temporis (was? I stopped looking at it in any edition). It seemed like writers always upped the ante from the OG 8+broken to make the shiny new toy.

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                          • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                            My issue is with everyone who was involved at the start of this edition. My luck of hope is based on the complete radioactive dumpster fire they made of the setting and lore, and every book I have seen so far either makes it worse, or keeps it the same. What I have seen of cults so far...well just say I disliked Loresheets, now I flat loathe them. Oh and Achilli's involvement is also a source of dread, given the wrecking ball he took to the sect with Revised, and his statements in interviews about his hatred for the sabbat and it's players, old now I admit, but still.
                            As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, Achilli did magic to the sect in the Revised GttS, it is overally one of his best works. The common sentiment across platforms - this forum's thread about his appointment, reddit, twitter, youtube comments and twitch chat during the Sabbat book announcement that he's going to work on the sect again - screams it is a welcome sign.

                            Yes, GttS had it's extremely edgelordy, even cringy, parts (not as much as 2ed ofc, 2 edition Sabbat is an epitome of edgelordiness) and I hope they will be gone, which falls in line with this edition' mood. I also hope those who wanted rob zombie stuff and depravity for the sake of depravity will also be gone along the most stupidly edgy things from the previous editions. Hence why my hopes of Sabbat becoming essentially a Black Hand - an elite religious and military force whose depravity is restrained, hidden and focused on the holy war mission - have a modicum of prediction in BJD and what we know of the sect from V5. Modelling the reborn sect after the Caine's Chosen will make it easier for the authors to make it distinct from the Anarchs (finally!) and rein in the more monstrous elements of the sect (as the Black Hand was typically more reserved and subtle) all whilst keeping the rituals, culture and elements of inhumanity that make the Sabbat an interesting sect to wider audience.

                            Good luck.

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                            • Other than the ability to permanently disfigure people with short term contact (an ability easily houseruled out) and bloodform (which is the best transformation power in most circumstances) Vicissitude really isn't that powerful.

                              I mean, sure, I listed some great stuff, but if you're learning Vicissitude you're not spending time making money or learning another, equally good power. The Common disciplines might not be as singularly powerful for specific applications as the rarer ones, but they've got far broader applications. From V20 I'd rather have Obfuscate 3 or Dominate 3 rather than Obtenebration 3 or Vicissitude 3 or Serpentis 3... Even though those disciplines get the attraction from being 'so powerful' really you're just building them up in your head because they're exclusive and we think exclusive stuff is better.


                              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                              There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                              • Originally posted by Val_Nir
                                Modelling the reborn sect after the Caine's Chosen will make it easier for the authors to make it distinct from the Anarchs (finally!) and rein in the more monstrous elements of the sect (as the Black Hand was typically more reserved and subtle) all whilst keeping the rituals, culture and elements of inhumanity that make the Sabbat an interesting sect to wider audience.
                                Wait, what? The Sabbat has ALWAYS been distinct from the Anarchs.. I don't even know what you're talking about. Nothing of these two Sects were even similar other than the fact that their against the Camarilla. Also making the Sabbat into a True Black Hand just sounds like a terrible idea, point blank.

                                EDIT: Also the Sabbat already had a "Black Hand" within its organization already- which has probably all but collapsed with the destruction of the majority of their territories or the entirety of them in the Middle-East with this whole "Beckoning" thing. What really would be interesting is to finally get the Sabbat back on track from the previous blunders of this opening edition and get them to get their territories back, at least in South and Central America.
                                Last edited by Shakanaka; 11-20-2020, 02:46 PM.


                                Jade Kingdom Warrior

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