Paths, and other Sabbat related shenanigans

[Val_Nir]

Good Uses of Vicissitidue 1-3 raw:
-Age-up characters for the masquerade
-Give people, vampires and their retainers, new identities
-Perfectly provide the appearance of another without needing to worry about the shortcomings of obfuscate.
-Improve appearance for better feeding.
-faking deaths.
-Give tattoos to vampires who otherwise would have to use those blasted sorcerers, who only have black ink, and are probably setting up a spell to grant eternal power over you.
-Sex reassignment, and other attempts at tackling body dysphoria.
-Making luxury ghouls and designer pets.
-Confusing the fuck out of zoologists
-Increasing the loyalty and social effectiveness of your ghouls.
-Make offers people don't want to refuse.
-Making cults out of your ability.
-Turning your insides into a better storage place.

Kinda-shitty uses RAW:
Combat
Making Combat Ghouls.


Basically, having Vicissitude is a magnet for wealth and prestation. You are offering a valuable service to people who benefit greatly from it. The fact that you can't really create good combat monsters RAW is more than made up for by your ability to resource ghouls who are more loyal and financially better equipped.

The Identity of Vicissitude, to me a person who loves the real tzmisce, is completely different from Protean. Vicissitude is a surgeon's power. an Artists's power. It's a calling. A profession as much as Thaumaturgy or necromancy. Protean is canonically just someone calling upon the beast to make temporary transformations for utility.

It's funny how every other post in the thread reminds us how Sabbat is divorced from humanity and mortals, yet the list of these powers covers primarily Camarilla-like chronicle interactions. I see no Sabbat utilizing these except the extremely moderate and deviant neonates or the master inflitrators sent to some hardcore Camarilla citadel like western European capitals.

Guess what, I think you are both right. Vici does allow all these; it is an extremely flexible discipline; the only downside it has is that it requires preparation. Want combat uses?

- physical attributes readjustments
- enforced carapace, marrows turned into a complete shell and further enforced - goodbye stacking
- forearm blades
- spikes anywhere
- lard and muscle stuffing for the most vulnerable parts
- virtually no limit in turning one into either an impenetrable bone tank or extra flexible harley quinn/assassins creed rogue or anything in between
- skull modifications, horns, enforced bone (hello Harderstadt)
- veins turned into a barbed whip hidden up your sleeve
- addtional (hidden) hands or other extremities for 'last ditch' shot or stab
- maw instead of mouth and shark's teeth for fangs, hello aggravated dmg successes
- whatever else one can come up with to improve their survival chances.

All of that requires preparation though - but that's Tzimisce flavor for which they are loved and praised. 'Leave the flashy stuff to barbarians and watch the real Art'.

And of course the most important part why Vici will always be more powerful than Protean - it's social. You could and should improve not only yourself but your packmates as well, not to mention your combat ghouls, given violence in the Sabbat is a way of unlifestyle. Vampires, and Sabbat, are social creatures, after all. Vici emphasises this aspect of the sect like no other Sabbat disipline.

Besides all of that, I am sure the rules will cover both sides - they would have some amalgams which allow for immediate use, like in flesh shintai (Flesh of Wind and Water anyone?), as well as more orthodox fleshcrafting at the lab. Probably different schools, too. I'd love to see how Obertus fleshcrafting differs from Bratovitches, for example.

[Taggie]

As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, Achilli did magic to the sect in the Revised GttS, it is overally one of his best works. The common sentiment across platforms - this forum's thread about his appointment, reddit, twitter, youtube comments and twitch chat during the Sabbat book announcement that he's going to work on the sect again - screams it is a welcome sign.

Yes, GttS had it's extremely edgelordy, even cringy, parts (not as much as 2ed ofc, 2 edition Sabbat is an epitome of edgelordiness) and I hope they will be gone, which falls in line with this edition' mood. I also hope those who wanted rob zombie stuff and depravity for the sake of depravity will also be gone along the most stupidly edgy things from the previous editions. Hence why my hopes of Sabbat becoming essentially a Black Hand - an elite religious and military force whose depravity is restrained, hidden and focused on the holy war mission - have a modicum of prediction in BJD and what we know of the sect from V5. Modelling the reborn sect after the Caine's Chosen will make it easier for the authors to make it distinct from the Anarchs (finally!) and rein in the more monstrous elements of the sect (as the Black Hand was typically more reserved and subtle) all whilst keeping the rituals, culture and elements of inhumanity that make the Sabbat an interesting sect to wider audience.

Good luck.

I want both, the House of a 1000 Corpses style, and the focused zealotry, since they are the same thing. The Sabbat are 30 Days of Knight meets the Knights Templar with a side order of Sith and a dash of Warriors Of Chaos, those are the things that made them great, the Black Hand if anything damaged the sect, and made it less interesting, they had their place as this anti- sabbat internal force undermining the freedom of the packs, but like infernalism, they were an internal rot, a disease to be cut out, not the future.

[Pleiades]

so, since Revised, VtM has focused on vampires are fragile territorial social predators, being mostly socialy inclined, having traveling impediments (day-night cycle and whatnot), avoiding violent conflict due to its deadlyness

also, since Revised, the devs have completely failed to respect that design choice, war is everywhere, violence is ever present, yet somehow doesn't disturb the local politics or social circles at all

also also, even though the devs have done a 180 on themselves and went the action-rpg route, they failed to provide players with proper action mechanics and survival mechanics for nomadic and violent vampires


now V5 comes in and, like for Revised, they go all "we're definitely making a political oriented game, we swear",

but of course, as if the Revised Sect wars weren't crazy enough, they decide that all sabbat and elders have gone en mass to the old world, leaving behind everything (nevermind if some methuselah might awaken in the Americas while the sabbat is absent) and have a massive war of all things,
and the ones that are left behind are Werewolf-like violent terrorists

how did they all manage to go to the old world to have a big war? you guessed it, the mechanics still don't explain how they having such an easy time moving around with weapons while they can't use technology and the government is hunting them down

I want to believe Justin can fix this whole mess,
hopefully by deleting the whole thing, and focusing on the social horror V5 was promissing and didn't deliver,
but I'd be fine if he finally blew the whistle about VtM devs being incapable of doing it, and just turn the game into an action battle royale rpg with proper mechanics to back it up

[MyWifeIsScary]

V5's combat system is very much "just get it out of the way"
It's not bad if that's what you like. But it denies itself complexity, strategy, and story hooks. I still fondly remember the time a high-humanity player of mine was struggling to bludgeon a receptionist to death. Really drove in the horror. You couldn't do something like that in this edition; too all-or-nothing.
Pre-v5 fighting certainly needed streamlining, but you could streamline it without killing all this stuff.

[Taggie]

V5's combat system is very much "just get it out of the way"
It's not bad if that's what you like. But it denies itself complexity, strategy, and story hooks. I still fondly remember the time a high-humanity player of mine was struggling to bludgeon a receptionist to death. Really drove in the horror. You couldn't do something like that in this edition; too all-or-nothing.
Pre-v5 fighting certainly needed streamlining, but you could streamline it without killing all this stuff.

not necessarily stream lining, but making it coherent certainly.

[Val_Nir]

Also the Sabbat already had a "Black Hand" within its organization already

Excuse me, are you trying to lecture me on my favorite sect's favorite subsect?

which has probably all but collapsed with the destruction of the majority of their territories

Black Hand does not hold territories. It's members are scattered across different packs. When they assemble into one pack it's called kamut and kamut exists for as long as their mission requires. Once it's accomplished, kamut is disbanded and the soldiers get back to their 'native' packs.
Permanent kamuts are extremely rare, are called columns and in fact are used to further hidden agenda's of the subsect's Seraphs.

entirety of them in the Middle-East with this whole "Beckoning" thing

Sabbat and specifically Black Hand at it's heart was CREATED AND DESIGNATED TO DO THE GEHENNA WAR TO KILL THE ELDERS THE METHUSELAH AND THE ANCIENTS
It's their holy goal, the alpha and the omega of their unlives! What do you mean destroyed - they are designed to wage war on other powerful vampires and trained for centuries to do just that! It's their Moment of Glory.

making the Sabbat into a True Black Hand just sounds like a terrible idea, point blank.

TMR (Tal Mahe Ra, True Black Hand) is a more of a metaplot device than a playable sect. I doubt we will see it in V5 at all. Where did I say I want Sabbat to become it?

Black Hand aka the Lost Tribe (True Hand from the perspective of Sabbat and False Hand from the perspective of the TMR) is the military arm of the Sabbat which served the sect since its inception, and served faithfully and successfully - it was Black Hand which saved Sabbat during 1st and 2nd Civil Wars, it was Black Hand which saved it from destruction by nascent Camarilla in the dark ages, it is Black Hand that carries out all of the major successful operations during crusades especially the East Coast successes. "When the blood and fire of the sect's packs and prisci fail to win the night, the Black Hand arrives like a grim cavalry on the cusp of the night" (Caine's Chosen). They are not some reluctant reinforcement - they are the main reason Sabbat could accomplish what it did accomplish and hold it's major domains across the globe instead of collapsing on itself because of endless feuding and infighting.

It is the backbone of the Sabbat, it's most devoted, zealous and, above all, efficient fighting force. How come you all know so little about it yet claim you are Sabbat players through and through?
Looks like you've only played as "blood and fire" of the rob zombie sabbat, while I want the sect to finally ascend to it's rightful position of "grim cavalry".
Seriously, read the whitewolf fandom wiki at least please.

[Val_Nir]

I want both, the House of a 1000 Corpses style, and the focused zealotry, since they are the same thing. The Sabbat are 30 Days of Knight meets the Knights Templar with a side order of Sith and a dash of Warriors Of Chaos, those are the things that made them great, the Black Hand if anything damaged the sect, and made it less interesting, they had their place as this anti- sabbat internal force undermining the freedom of the packs, but like infernalism, they were an internal rot, a disease to be cut out, not the future.

Taggie from your favorite 2ed guide to the Sabbat: "The Black Hand has long been one of the central forces holding the Sabbat together". "The Black Hand was the only part of the Sabbat to survive the civil war intact because of it's strictness and discipline".

Srsly, Im gonna botch my frenzy check roll rn. Please read the actual books you refer to before making those wild claims

In no edition did black hand spread rot or infernalism or else. it was always the elite part of the sabbat, I don;t even know where you could get those ideas about rot and infernalism. this is simply against the fundamental part of the sect and its appeal

[Taggie]

Excuse me, are you trying to lecture me on my favorite sect's favorite subsect?



Black Hand does not hold territories. It's members are scattered across different packs. When they assemble into one pack it's called kamut and kamut exists for as long as their mission requires. Once it's accomplished, kamut is disbanded and the soldiers get back to their 'native' packs.
Permanent kamuts are extremely rare, are called columns and in fact are used to further hidden agenda's of the subsect's Seraphs.



Sabbat and specifically Black Hand at it's heart was CREATED AND DESIGNATED TO DO THE GEHENNA WAR TO KILL THE ELDERS THE METHUSELAH AND THE ANCIENTS
It's their holy goal, the alpha and the omega of their unlives! What do you mean destroyed - they are designed to wage war on other powerful vampires and trained for centuries to do just that! It's their Moment of Glory.



TMR (Tal Mahe Ra, True Black Hand) is a more of a metaplot device than a playable sect. I doubt we will see it in V5 at all. Where did I say I want Sabbat to become it?

Black Hand aka the Lost Tribe (True Hand from the perspective of Sabbat and False Hand from the perspective of the TMR) is the military arm of the Sabbat which served the sect since its inception, and served faithfully and successfully - it was Black Hand which saved Sabbat during 1st and 2nd Civil Wars, it was Black Hand which saved it from destruction by nascent Camarilla in the dark ages, it is Black Hand that carries out all of the major successful operations during crusades especially the East Coast successes. "When the blood and fire of the sect's packs and prisci fail to win the night, the Black Hand arrives like a grim cavalry on the cusp of the night" (Caine's Chosen). They are not some reluctant reinforcement - they are the main reason Sabbat could accomplish what it did accomplish and hold it's major domains across the globe instead of collapsing on itself because of endless feuding and infighting.

It is the backbone of the Sabbat, it's most devoted, zealous and, above all, efficient fighting force. How come you all know so little about it yet claim you are Sabbat players through and through?
Looks like you've only played as "blood and fire" of the rob zombie sabbat, while I want the sect to finally ascend to it's rightful position of "grim cavalry".
Seriously, read the whitewolf fandom wiki at least please.

I do know the difference between TMR And Black Hand, I just prefer the Templars and Inquisition side, with the politicking and intrigue amongst the Priesthood and Packs. BH are...meh, and seem to cause more civil wars than they are actually worth. The Sabbats rightful position is terrifying monsters with alien morality, not Spec Ops with fangs. Fighting Gehenna was about crushing the Camarilla as the tool of the ancients, as the first goal...not going off on a BH led suicide mission...

[Val_Nir]

I do know the difference between TMR And Black Hand, I just prefer the Templars and Inquisition side, with the politicking and intrigue amongst the Priesthood and Packs. BH are...meh, and seem to cause more civil wars than they are actually worth.

They SAVED Sabbat from itself during two Civil Wars... without it, Sabbat would have long ceased to exist.. Taggie are you making it all up on the fly or what? Do I need to re-type whole Guides to the Sabbat and black hand to prove you wrong?

[Taggie]

They SAVED Sabbat from itself during two Civil Wars... without it, Sabbat would have long ceased to exist.. Taggie are you making it all up on the fly or what? Do I need to re-type whole Guides to the Sabbat and black hand to prove you wrong?

I have read them thanks. And I do not like, and do not want, and do not enjoy the BH. TBH better the sect dies than turns into them, again, plot tumour that ruins the things that make the sect fun.

[Shakanaka]

The Black Hand only works when there IS a Sabbat. By shifting all the focus to just this single Elite division WILL just make it into them True Black Hand 2.0 which won't solve anything. They wouldn't be a Sect, just a mini one akin to the Inconnu (are they even still a thing?), but just slightly larger. Even then with how V5 has it, the Black Hand has failed by every stretch to even keep the Sabbat relevant or the writers completely forgot about them; or they are all in the Middle-East, of which hopefully Justin can wrangle up something to even the Sabbat remotely interesting. I still standby the point of all this even happening because the new writers for VTM didn't like Elders or the Sabbat so they came up with the Beckoning for some answer to shove them out for awhile.

[Val_Nir]

I have read them thanks. And I do not like, and do not want, and do not enjoy the BH. TBH better the sect dies than turns into them, again, plot tumour that ruins the things that make the sect fun.

So you don't know the essential, fundamental Sabbat stuff yet are quite vocal about it's possible fate in V5. "Why? Why, Mr Anderson? Why do you persist?"

In any case, thank you for a funny discussion. I have got to know a lot about some Sabbat fans on this forum. I hope publishers and authors check it from time to time, too.

[CTPhipps]

The Black Hand basically hits on Taggie's issue. Taggie loves the Sabbat as a functional sect that has posthuman morality and little chaos.

The Black Hand's story is basically a reaffirmation of the way I view it, which is that 80% of Sabbat are worthless Low Humanity pseudo-wioghts and a handful of elites that "get it."

[Taggie]

So you don't know the essential, fundamental Sabbat stuff yet are quite vocal about it's possible fate in V5. "Why? Why, Mr Anderson? Why do you persist?"

In any case, thank you for a funny discussion. I have got to know a lot about some Sabbat fans on this forum. I hope publishers and authors check it from time to time, too.

The Black Hand ended the second civil war, and helped start the 4th. In ending the Second they put an Infernalist in the Regency, so well done being a tool of the cancer killing the sect I guess?

The Black Hand basically hits on Taggie's issue. Taggie loves the Sabbat as a functional sect that has posthuman morality and little chaos.

The Black Hand's story is basically a reaffirmation of the way I view it, which is that 80% of Sabbat are worthless Low Humanity pseudo-wioghts and a handful of elites that "get it."

Pretty much, maybe more than a little, because politicking and duels can be fun, but yea a functional sect.

[Val_Nir]

The Black Hand only works when there IS a Sabbat. By shifting all the focus to just this single Elite division WILL just make it into them True Black Hand 2.0 which won't solve anything. They wouldn't be a Sect, just a mini one akin to the Inconnu (are they even still a thing?), but just slightly larger. Even then with how V5 has it, the Black Hand has failed by every stretch to even keep the Sabbat relevant or the writers completely forgot about them; or they are all in the Middle-East, of which hopefully Justin can wrangle up something to even the Sabbat remotely interesting. I still standby the point of all this even happening because the new writers for VTM didn't like Elders or the Sabbat so they came up with the Beckoning for some answer to shove them out for awhile.

Black Hand agents work everywhere, otherwise they could not do the fantastic recon they do for the sect, and can stay undercover in the enemy territory for as long as needed. Which actually suits the current states of affairs of the sect in NA more than well.

It will not make them True Hand because True Hand is a bunch of the oldest most jaded and most conformists vampires in existence whose goal is to defend and serve the Antediluvians by any means. It is far more old fashioned than any decrepit Camarilla primogen could be. To put it frankly, The False (Sabbat) Hand is to TMR what Sabbat is to False Hand, in terms of mood and theme.
They are closer to the Inconnu than to any other vampire sect and no amount of retconing could change it. Most importantly, it's not necessary - TMR always served as something to move the metaplot forwad behind the scenes rather than to be engaged directly. They guard the ghostly version of the First CIty of Enoch in the Shadowlands, for Caine's sake. No other sect has anything on that.

Your correct assumption is about BH to be in the Middle East doing what they do best; and since we get playable Sabbat they either succeded and killed/consumed enough Methuselahs or some other metaplot event happened, like the end of the Beckoning. So now they either are going back to reclaim what was lost by those Sabbat who stayed, or they can be playable in the conflict zones across the world (not just Middle East). As a non-Western world player, I fully welcome a book which presents an option to play a Sabbat crusade in other places than just North America.

Yes they did use the Beckoning to shove off the big boys (Sabbat, elders, Inconnu, TMR you name it) from the desk to let children play and enjoy basic stuff. I strongly suspect that all of the big players will be back in due time. I also think it's an awesome shakeup which finally gave Sabbat somethig to be united about and stopped the constant feuding, civil wars and politicking, at least for a time. I don't think the coming book will focus solely on the war effort even though I would like it to be so. They will likely bring back some good old backstabbing in the North America domains albeit in a much more subtle and focused style.

Vasantasena's words to Beckett in his Jyhad Diary say a lot to me, as they should to any other Sabbat player. I would recommend checking them again for possible hints of the future of the sect in V5.