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  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    The Black Hand basically hits on Taggie's issue. Taggie loves the Sabbat as a functional sect that has posthuman morality and little chaos.

    The Black Hand's story is basically a reaffirmation of the way I view it, which is that 80% of Sabbat are worthless Low Humanity pseudo-wioghts and a handful of elites that "get it."
    Sabbat is a functional sect in no small part due to the efforts of the Inquisition and Black Hand, but not only them. Vaulderie, Paths, and Ritae do a wonderful job of holding it together. Pity that only Black Hand and Inquisition can stay intact w/o all the 'fun stuff'.
    Another oversimplification. There are much less than 80% of shovelheads, the 80% is the facade for the other sects.

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    • Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post

      Sabbat is a functional sect in no small part due to the efforts of the Inquisition and Black Hand, but not only them. Vaulderie, Paths, and Ritae do a wonderful job of holding it together. Pity that only Black Hand and Inquisition can stay intact w/o all the 'fun stuff'.
      Another oversimplification. There are much less than 80% of shovelheads, the 80% is the facade for the other sects.
      Not mocking him. Just saying different ways of viewing it. The Storyteller determines which elements of the sect to emphasize and there's no wrong answer.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • Originally posted by Taggie View Post


        The Black Hand ended the second civil war, and helped start the 4th. In ending the Second they put an Infernalist in the Regency, so well done being a tool of the cancer killing the sect I guess?
        And still, the sect holds in no small part thanks to them. Btw did you know that the Inquisition, the main tool to save Sabbat from infernalists, was founded by one of the Black Hand dominions? So, despite them hunting down Mallenhouse for his treason, they did correct their own messup in the end.

        The 4th was not started neither was helped to start by Black Hand. It is still unknown who killed the Regent as well as her impostor. Black Hand probably took a lot of blame for it, though. Maybe the Inquisition will become the new Black Hand, who knows. Sabbat still needs elite soldiers and capable intelligence to survive in modern nights of surveillance state and the SI, so whoever it is, I look forward to playing the vampiric CIA.

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        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          Not mocking him. Just saying different ways of viewing it. The Storyteller determines which elements of the sect to emphasize and there's no wrong answer.


          My experience is either of STs who ignored revised and we had the 2e posthuman crusaders with alien morality and sick games (the fun Sabbat, if it does need some sanity checks to actually function), or went with revised where we ended up with 70-90% shovelheads, anarch wannabes and fodder, with the interesting parts retgonned.

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          • Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post

            And still, the sect holds in no small part thanks to them. Btw did you know that the Inquisition, the main tool to save Sabbat from infernalists, was founded by one of the Black Hand dominions? So, despite them hunting down Mallenhouse for his treason, they did correct their own messup in the end.

            The 4th was not started neither was helped to start by Black Hand. It is still unknown who killed the Regent as well as her impostor. Black Hand probably took a lot of blame for it, though. Maybe the Inquisition will become the new Black Hand, who knows. Sabbat still needs elite soldiers and capable intelligence to survive in modern nights of surveillance state and the SI, so whoever it is, I look forward to playing the vampiric CIA.

            The Inquisition I would be fine with, a more formalised system of Templars as well, it's just the BH I don't like.

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            • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
              My experience is either of STs who ignored revised and we had the 2e posthuman crusaders with alien morality and sick games (the fun Sabbat, if it does need some sanity checks to actually function), or went with revised where we ended up with 70-90% shovelheads, anarch wannabes and fodder, with the interesting parts retgonned.
              If I may share an experience with the latter, the idea that I felt was fun about the "failing Sabbat" is the idea that the PCs are meant to be some of the True SabbatTM and stuck dealing with an uphill battle.

              If I were to make a comparison, it's like being Qui Gon Jinn in reverse. The Jedi are failing to understand what makes a REAL Jedi and only you "get it." You are part of a failing Sabbat of too much infighting and shovelhead nonsense but are one of the people that are truly of the alien genius moralities. The question falls down on you, "How do I fix the Sword of Caine?"

              If you're going for a low key adventure, it may not be fun but if you are powerful enough then maybe you will become Regent and fix everything. I had a lot of fun with those kinds of Sabbat games as the PCs realize they have to seize power for themselves, defect, or do some sort of supervillainous plot if they are going to make the Sabbat what it should be.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • just a small remarque,
                in revised, you don't play shovelheads, ex-shovelhead at worst,
                playing a shovelhead in Revised is like playing a ghoul in the camarilla

                shovelheads are just there so you can use them to handle the dirty work and the fighting (and deal with the consequences if they come back alive),
                cause in Revised, doing the fighting yourself isn't a good idea


                -

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                • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                  just a small remarque,
                  in revised, you don't play shovelheads, ex-shovelhead at worst,
                  playing a shovelhead in Revised is like playing a ghoul in the camarilla

                  shovelheads are just there so you can use them to handle the dirty work and the fighting (and deal with the consequences if they come back alive),
                  cause in Revised, doing the fighting yourself isn't a good idea

                  True, tho I have the bad habit of calling any Sabbat on humanity shovelheads, even if they are technically more powerful than that, basically had a character who did it and played him so long it stuck.

                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                  If I may share an experience with the latter, the idea that I felt was fun about the "failing Sabbat" is the idea that the PCs are meant to be some of the True SabbatTM and stuck dealing with an uphill battle.

                  If I were to make a comparison, it's like being Qui Gon Jinn in reverse. The Jedi are failing to understand what makes a REAL Jedi and only you "get it." You are part of a failing Sabbat of too much infighting and shovelhead nonsense but are one of the people that are truly of the alien genius moralities. The question falls down on you, "How do I fix the Sword of Caine?"

                  If you're going for a low key adventure, it may not be fun but if you are powerful enough then maybe you will become Regent and fix everything. I had a lot of fun with those kinds of Sabbat games as the PCs realize they have to seize power for themselves, defect, or do some sort of supervillainous plot if they are going to make the Sabbat what it should be.
                  Never really had characters that powerful (apart from Transylvania Chronicles or Giovanni Chronicles end characters, but they tend to be retired as those arcs end.)
                  Last edited by Taggie; 11-20-2020, 05:46 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                    Never really had characters that powerful (apart from Transylvania Chronicles or Giovanni Chronicles end characters, but they tend to be retired as those arcs end.)
                    I admit, it works very well for Elders and I mostly used them for Transylvania Chronicles and Giovanni Chronicles Sabbat.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                      so, since Revised, VtM has focused on vampires are fragile territorial social predators, being mostly socialy inclined, having traveling impediments (day-night cycle and whatnot), avoiding violent conflict due to its deadlyness

                      also, since Revised, the devs have completely failed to respect that design choice, war is everywhere, violence is ever present, yet somehow doesn't disturb the local politics or social circles at all

                      also also, even though the devs have done a 180 on themselves and went the action-rpg route, they failed to provide players with proper action mechanics and survival mechanics for nomadic and violent vampires


                      now V5 comes in and, like for Revised, they go all "we're definitely making a political oriented game, we swear",

                      but of course, as if the Revised Sect wars weren't crazy enough, they decide that all sabbat and elders have gone en mass to the old world, leaving behind everything (nevermind if some methuselah might awaken in the Americas while the sabbat is absent) and have a massive war of all things,
                      and the ones that are left behind are Werewolf-like violent terrorists

                      how did they all manage to go to the old world to have a big war? you guessed it, the mechanics still don't explain how they having such an easy time moving around with weapons while they can't use technology and the government is hunting them down

                      I want to believe Justin can fix this whole mess,
                      hopefully by deleting the whole thing, and focusing on the social horror V5 was promissing and didn't deliver,
                      but I'd be fine if he finally blew the whistle about VtM devs being incapable of doing it, and just turn the game into an action battle royale rpg with proper mechanics to back it up

                      Well, they did not fail that design choice, except for the Sabbat. Other sects still avoided violent resolutions of any kind of conflict, and Camarila or even Anarch combat heavy games were always a rare sight.
                      The most combat heavy edition was 2nd, basically superheroes/antiheroes with fangs. Then they had the classy, restrained, deeply detailed and Masquerade-heavy Revised focused on 4D political supernatural chess and House of Cards style games, with an occasional violence, except again for the Sabbat where violence was not only allowed by STs but expected from the players. Still, even the Sabbat was 'civilized' and political, most of the time with all the flashy occult stuff downgraded to edgy chainsaws. Revised literally combined the best of both worlds, although it was Revised that removed the 2nd edition 'everything is possible' with the most rigidly written specifics, like sect specific clans, bloodlines, disciplines, social, political and occult taboos, etc. For some reason most of the players love this one the most. Personally, I prefer v20 and whatever brings the expansion of metaplot to the V5.

                      If I want a vampiric action RPG, 2nd edition is made for that.

                      how did they all manage to go to the old world to have a big war? you guessed it, the mechanics still don't explain how they having such an easy time moving around with weapons while they can't use technology and the government is hunting them down
                      BJD perfectly explains all these things. Again, so many arguments against the metaplot developments here come from lacking of nuance of the Middle East/Eastern Europe/Africa as regions, and the conflicts plaguing those in particular.

                      It all starts with the operation Iraqi Freedom, when the majority of Sabbat across the West managed to move to middle east among private contractors as well as regular duty soldiers. Then, since 2004 (BJD events and start of Civil war of the sabbat), it was all open conflict across dozens of countries will countless groups and organizations involved on numerous sides. Syria, Turkish-Kurdish conflict, Iraq, Palestine, Arabic Spring, Guaddafi, Libya, Mali, Yemen, Georgia, Crimea & Donbass, Sudan, right freaking now - Nagorno-Karabakh in Armenia/Azerbaijan and Tigray crisis in Ethiopia. Countless other minor conflict zones. In all of these conflicts, all kinds of war crimes were and are committed now, with proxy forces and all kinds of mercs and PMCs involved who couldn't care less about any kind of ethics or honour; counter-intelligence efforts, massive disinfo campaigns and desperate attempts to cover one's side crimes and expose the enemy's by any means necessary. It's not a conventional conflict with clearly defined frontlines and allegiances, it's an absolute mess. It is a place of the biggest humanitarian disaster of our time. No better place to cover Masquerade-shattering events because nobody cares about it. Government hunting them? what government? There is no government capable of sufficiently conducting a monster-hunting campaign in the regions because quite often the difference between humans and monsters is gone. Most of the monsters are there for oil, land or faith, and a few - for blood.
                      And the worst part is that the rest of the world has grown dumb on all the blood and warfare, of all the terrible news coming from there. Besides, isolationism is a hell of a drug, and unfortunately is on the rise nowadays. Now, with this freaking pandemic on top of it all.

                      But yeah, do go on how 'there is war but the gov-t is hunting vampires'. One thing is investigating supernatural occurances in the middle of Western Europe and completely another trying to do it in Rojava or Donbass.

                      Yes, they totally used it (Beckoning/Gehenna) as a metaplot-shaking tool, it's obvious, afaik no one at WW even tried to deny it. Did it fit? Also 100% yes. If, of course, you do any kind of research.

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                      • I imagine most Sabbat Cities are just... Camarilla cities but with more clans and the Vauldrie done between neighbors. Courts are more religious in function. Because of the Vauldrie, everything runs a lot smoother, at least enough so that it counters a lot of things the Sabbat does worse than the Camarilla.
                        Peacetime Sabbat? Some folks act like they're preparing for war. but really their behaviour normalizes eachother. Good social bonds prevents the worst kinds of deviance.

                        But then again I also Imagine most Camarilla cities are pretty chill and work well.



                        Players just don't play in cities where everything works too well. And trying to move to a new city is inherently a destabilizing action....



                        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                        • Polonia claiming credit for 9/11 is the most tasteless and weird thing in all of WOD history.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            Polonia claiming credit for 9/11 is the most tasteless and weird thing in all of WOD history.


                            yup. TBH they had a good rule with Charnel Houses of Europe, on how exactly to handle real world atrocities in WOD, the Gehenna Crusade seems to break that rule, by one: Being current, 2: Not really doing the research, and 3: being tasteless about it. Same problem the Chechnya section had, but for an entire plot line.

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                            • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                              yup. TBH they had a good rule with Charnel Houses of Europe, on how exactly to handle real world atrocities in WOD, the Gehenna Crusade seems to break that rule, by one: Being current, 2: Not really doing the research, and 3: being tasteless about it. Same problem the Chechnya section had, but for an entire plot line.
                              No need for any of it to do the Gehenna Crusade, IMHO.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • I see no issue in vampires parasytizing on human conflict; this was the deal for all of WoD/VtM history. The story of Chechen campaigns (not the bullshit from the book but the actual 90s military campaigns) is absolutely worth telling via WoD as well.
                                Another thing is to divorce it succesfully from the human causes and do a proper research/hire people either native to the region or having been reporting/researching on it for decades.

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