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  • #46
    The Sabbat in V20 was working as intended. It fulfilled it's functions. Just because it doesn't benefit a lot of it's members doesn't mean it doesn't work. It's like American Democracy.


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    • #47
      Originally posted by Taggie View Post

      Where is the rest of the Path? It's ethics and sins? You just made a token gesture to let you do.what ever you want, where is the Path in what you posted? It's nowhere near adequate, its the path of whatever I want, you edition.
      What I did was adapt the Path of Blood to V5 mechanics. If you need a deeper explanation about what the path of blood ethics entail

      If you mean the explanation of every score in your path chart... I'm not going to do that much work for a forum post but its' pretty easy to do. With a score of 10 you identify yourself with the path, gain some substantial advantages for being this high on your path but every minor transgression threatens your morality and it's easy to deteriorate. With a score of one you are barely sentient and enjoy huge penalties to your dice rolls as the beast is almost free from its cage.

      As for it being a Path that allows you to do whatever you want... As presented a character on the Path of Blood in V5 would check for stains everytime he loses control. You sin more severely against the path if you do something like killing a mortal during frenzy, while lesser lapses in control like hurting someone as a side effect of a messy critical should deserve 1 stain at most. A devout follower of this Path would also be forced to judge other vampires based on their actions and act to punish them according to the traditions. Ignoring the sins of others would cause stains. This doesn't mean that minor violations automatically deserve diablerie as that's an extreme measure and the ST should be the arbiter of wether the player is justified in his actions. And of course a PC on the PoB who acts dishonorably gets stains as well.

      So as you can see, as presented, it's hardly a path for doing whatever you want.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post

        -A good chunk of paths are harder than humanity.
        -"path of what I was going to do anyway" is the point of picking a path. Why would you purposely adopt a morality ill-suited to your goals? That'd be crazy. The path justifying your actions is a feature, not a flaw. As for roleplaying? I roleplay em. Experienced players rollplay em. Sure some people don't, but those same people forget to RP humanity too.
        It was never meant to be that way but thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly.


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        • #49
          Originally posted by Haquim View Post

          It was never meant to be that way but thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly.

          Can you regale us of this "illustration" because I'd like to know. I'm of the belief that picking a Path at character creation that would suit your playstyle or character makes sense. What do you mean by it was never "meant to be" to be that way?


          Jade Kingdom Warrior

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Haquim View Post


            1)If you mean the explanation of every score in your path chart... I'm not going to do that much work for a forum post but its' pretty easy to do. With a score of 10 you identify yourself with the path, gain some substantial advantages for being this high on your path but every minor transgression threatens your morality and it's easy to deteriorate. With a score of one you are barely sentient and enjoy huge penalties to your dice rolls as the beast is almost free from its cage.

            2)As for it being a Path that allows you to do whatever you want... As presented a character on the Path of Blood in V5 would check for stains everytime he loses control. You sin more severely against the path if you do something like killing a mortal during frenzy, while lesser lapses in control like hurting someone as a side effect of a messy critical should deserve 1 stain at most. A devout follower of this Path would also be forced to judge other vampires based on their actions and act to punish them according to the traditions. Ignoring the sins of others would cause stains. This doesn't mean that minor violations automatically deserve diablerie as that's an extreme measure and the ST should be the arbiter of wether the player is justified in his actions. And of course a PC on the PoB who acts dishonorably gets stains as well.

            So as you can see, as presented, it's hardly a path for doing whatever you want.
            1) their is no hierarchy of sins mechanic in V5, so no, they don't work that way. You are limited to 3 convictions, and 3 chronicle tenets, so no, it doesn't work that way, you don't get to select what causes degeneration, what actions are unacceptable, the ST does, and some how he has to fit every path into that, with only 3 tenets.

            2) It's the path of being an authoritarian douche. assuming that is what you wanted to play it is the 'path of doing what I wanted anyway', if that isn't the personality you wanted to play, why on earth would that character chose the path of authoritarian douchery?
            Last edited by Taggie; 11-14-2020, 05:03 PM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Taggie View Post

              1) their is no hierarchy of sins mechanic in V5, so no, they don't work that way. You are limited to 3 convictions, and 3 chronicle tenets, so no, it doesn't work that way, you don't get to select what causes degeneration, what actions are unacceptable, the ST does, and some how he has to fit every path into that, with only 3 tenets.

              2) It's the path of being an authoritarian douche. assuming that is what you wanted to play it is the 'path of doing what I wanted anyway', if that isn't the personality you wanted to play, why on earth would that character chose the path of authoritarian douchery?
              1. Perhaps I didn't explain myself as well as I thought I did. I posted 3 convictions. When you sin against the Path following those convictions you can mitigate the stains. For example, if you kill someone who is abusing a mortal you mitigate the effect. If you frenzy and kill someone you obviously get more stains because that runs contrary to the ethics of the Path but if you do whatever you can to stay in control of yourself (means you spend willpower) that works as mitigating circumstance for the conviction. If while enforcing the traditions you break chronicle tenets that gives a chance to mitigate the effects of the violation. And OF COURSE the ST is involved with all of this and has final say, how could he not be? But the only that's true for all of V5 morality which is extremely flexible depending on chronicle.

              2. It's the path of the judge. What you can and cannot do is dictated by the laws of blood (the traditions) and a specific set of ethics proper to Haqim teachings. For brevity sake I compressed those laws as follows: don't abuse mortals/keep control over your urges/be honorable to your friends/punish those who break the law in a fair way. It doesn't seem like you get to do what you want to me, on the contrary.
              This Path may not be your cup of tea but that's how the Path of Blood has been conceptualized since Revised. If you lament the lack of detail I can see your point but as I said I don't really want to write the whole path of Blood for V5 here and now. I just made an example to prove it is doable.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Haquim View Post

                1. Perhaps I didn't explain myself as well as I thought I did. I posted 3 convictions. When you sin against the Path following those convictions you can mitigate the stains. For example, if you kill someone who is abusing a mortal you mitigate the effect. If you frenzy and kill someone you obviously get more stains because that runs contrary to the ethics of the Path but if you do whatever you can to stay in control of yourself (means you spend willpower) that works as mitigating circumstance for the conviction. If while enforcing the traditions you break chronicle tenets that gives a chance to mitigate the effects of the violation. And OF COURSE the ST is involved with all of this and has final say, how could he not be? But the only that's true for all of V5 morality which is extremely flexible depending on chronicle.

                2. It's the path of the judge. What you can and cannot do is dictated by the laws of blood (the traditions) and a specific set of ethics proper to Haqim teachings. For brevity sake I compressed those laws as follows: don't abuse mortals/keep control over your urges/be honorable to your friends/punish those who break the law in a fair way. It doesn't seem like you get to do what you want to me, on the contrary.
                This Path may not be your cup of tea but that's how the Path of Blood has been conceptualized since Revised. If you lament the lack of detail I can see your point but as I said I don't really want to write the whole path of Blood for V5 here and now. I just made an example to prove it is doable.
                1) That is the problem, Paths aren't flexible, and do require you to pay attention to a code of ethics you chose, Tenets are 3 or 4 fairly arbitrary choices by the ST that are the tone he wants to set. They don't mesh. At all. The only thing that should matter for degeneration is the Path, that's the point, and their is no mechanics for personal Tenets, or ones that change by path/humanity score.

                2) again it is the path of doing whatever you want, because it is the path of the character you want to play, and presumably you actually read it first, and decided it portrayed the ethics you wanted to play.
                Last edited by Taggie; 11-14-2020, 06:26 PM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Haquim View Post

                  You are saying that. What I'm saying is that people who want the "Path of what I was going to do anyway" won't be happy with paths implemented into V5 framework because what they want from a path is very dificult to get in V5.

                  As for your take on paths I know the theory very well, in practice most of the time paths were not taken to roleplay something different from humanity but rather to get away with things and player behaviours that normally did not fly under humanity. That was a known issue back in the day and that's why the "Path of what I was going to do anyway" is a direct quote from one of the Revised era books after all.
                  I thought "Path of what I was going to do anyway" was for paths that had too lenient or unchallenging hierarchy of sins, not for paths that you wanted to follow


                  -

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                    1) That is the problem, Paths aren't flexible, and do require you to pay attention to a code of ethics you chose, Tenets are 3 or 4 fairly arbitrary choices by the ST that are the tone he wants to set. They don't mesh. At all. The only thing that should matter for degeneration is the Path, that's the point, and their is no mechanics for personal Tenets, or ones that change by path/humanity score.

                    2) again it is the path of doing whatever you want, because it is the path of the character you want to play, and presumably you actually read it first, and decided it portrayed the ethics you wanted to play.
                    1. Here's what the V5 says about Chronicle Tenets:

                    Originally posted by V5 Core Book
                    The troupe should assemble a set of chronicle Tenets, based on anything from genre emulation, dramatic irony, to personal taste or real-life player concerns. Remember that Tenets only impose moral sanction and degeneration on the characters when violated – if a player might genuinely risk trauma by playing a story featuring a given violation, the Storyteller should either avoid that subject or invite the player to join a different troupe to explore a different chronicle entirely. Chronicle Tenets apply to all player characters in a chronicle, even if the character doesn’t hold this belief personally. The struggle between a character’s individual moral code and that of their society forms one of the core stories in human literature, after all. The chronicle Tenets comprise a kind of ethical ground floor, so that when and if the characters do become nihilistic serial killers, it carries a cost. Also make sure to talk through the chosen Tenets in your group, so that all players understand what they mean and what kind of actions would consist violations of these Tenets.
                    So it's not just up to the ST to decide about Tenets, the whole troupe does that. And that allows for the creation of a set of Tenets that may make playing a Path absolutely possible. For example I previously mentioned the "Creed of Justice" presented in the V5 CRB and said it could work well with the Path of Blood (IMO). As per the abovementioned text Chronicle Tenets are the values one is expected to uphold while convictions represent your personal creed. In this case I suggested that for V5 Paths should give you a set of convictions (although thinking about it, they could provide you with more than 3 options giving more of a choice about the kind of Path Follower you want to be thus promoting diversity among the followers of the same Path - that could be tricky to ballance though because some choices may be perceived as better than others giving players more of a leeway)

                    2. Pleiades as well: "The Path of what I was going to do anyway" is a path chosen by a player NOT for the potential roleplay value but for pure mechanical advantage. As correctly summed up by someone on this very thread it was basically the same as the way some players interpreted the CN alignment from D&D. "Whatever I do is justified because it fits my ethos". So players who wanted to do whatever they wanted, like killing NPCs for no reason at all, and not have to deal with degeneration, used this kind of Path to justify their behaviour. "I killed those children because they were mortals and my Path says mortals are cattle". I mentioned the Path of Blood because the original version (not the one from Revised) basically justified diablerie, so naturally there were players who wanted to take this Path in order to diablerize to their heart's content while avoiding the moral problems connected with the practice and even make an argument about them staying loyal to their character. In other words "The Path of what I was going to do anyway" doesn't mean you should not play a certain kind of character but rather that you should not try to use the path system to avoid the rules about morality and degeneration while engaging in antisocial behaviour. VtM was built around the idea of personal horror while the kind of approach some paths endorsed made a mockery of it.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Haquim View Post

                      1. Here's what the V5 says about Chronicle Tenets:



                      So it's not just up to the ST to decide about Tenets, the whole troupe does that. And that allows for the creation of a set of Tenets that may make playing a Path absolutely possible. For example I previously mentioned the "Creed of Justice" presented in the V5 CRB and said it could work well with the Path of Blood (IMO). As per the abovementioned text Chronicle Tenets are the values one is expected to uphold while convictions represent your personal creed. In this case I suggested that for V5 Paths should give you a set of convictions (although thinking about it, they could provide you with more than 3 options giving more of a choice about the kind of Path Follower you want to be thus promoting diversity among the followers of the same Path - that could be tricky to ballance though because some choices may be perceived as better than others giving players more of a leeway)

                      2. Pleiades as well: "The Path of what I was going to do anyway" is a path chosen by a player NOT for the potential roleplay value but for pure mechanical advantage. As correctly summed up by someone on this very thread it was basically the same as the way some players interpreted the CN alignment from D&D. "Whatever I do is justified because it fits my ethos". So players who wanted to do whatever they wanted, like killing NPCs for no reason at all, and not have to deal with degeneration, used this kind of Path to justify their behaviour. "I killed those children because they were mortals and my Path says mortals are cattle". I mentioned the Path of Blood because the original version (not the one from Revised) basically justified diablerie, so naturally there were players who wanted to take this Path in order to diablerize to their heart's content while avoiding the moral problems connected with the practice and even make an argument about them staying loyal to their character. In other words "The Path of what I was going to do anyway" doesn't mean you should not play a certain kind of character but rather that you should not try to use the path system to avoid the rules about morality and degeneration while engaging in antisocial behaviour. VtM was built around the idea of personal horror while the kind of approach some paths endorsed made a mockery of it.
                      1) again the only sins that matter to someone on a path should be the sins of that path, tenets do not allow that.

                      2) you have a very different view of what Paths are for, a vampire on a path may very well kill because humans are cattle, or they enjoy screams, or for any other path and personality related reason, they hold to the path, they don't degenerate, even while turning the local homeless population into novelty furniture. Also stop trying to declare badwrongfun Paths could be used for 30 Days of Night or Dusk til Dawn style chronicles..as they were clearly intended to from the start. They are the opt out of the interview with the vampire style horror of camirilla games

                      Being a dick about that is a session zero issue not game mechanics.
                      Last edited by Taggie; 11-14-2020, 08:16 PM.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                        1) again the only sins that matter to someone on a path should be the sins of that path, tenets do not allow that.

                        2) you have a very different view of what Paths are for, a vampire on a path may very well kill because humans are cattle, or they enjoy screams, or for any other path and personality related reason, they hold to the path, they don't degenerate, even while turning the local homeless population into novelty furniture. Also stop trying to declare badwrongfun Paths could be used for 30 Days of Night or Dusk til Dawn style chronicles..as they were clearly intended to from the start. They are the opt out of the interview with the vampire style horror of camirilla games

                        Being a dick about that is a session zero issue not game mechanics.
                        1. You keep saying that, I don't see how that's true. But I can see nothing will change your mind, which begets the question of why opening a thread asking a question about something you have already decided that cannot be done.

                        2. Nope. Paths were introduced to give players different options for roleplaying but too often ended up being a thinily veiled excuse to justify abusive behaviour. Again: "The Path of what I was going to do anyway" is not some definition I invented it's an official warning against that kind of behaviour dating back to Revised. As for the usual "badwrongfun" argument... you can have fun any way you want as long as you don't ruin it or cause distress to others. The fact you can't see how some Paths were abusable and were actually abused is not my problem but it's still a fact. And I'm not just talking about people upsetting other people (although that could be a huge problem with Paths) I'm talking about people selecting Paths with the precise idea of doing whatever they wanted and getting away with it, which, to me is a mechanical problem.
                        Last edited by Haquim; 11-14-2020, 09:07 PM.

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                        • #57
                          Below is an excerpt of an old reply to someone asking for three Tenets for Harmony, Humanity, Power and Inner Voice, Metamorphosis.

                          You need three Tenets that would work for all those moralities. How about...

                          Do not lose yourself to the Beast
                          Do not murder indiscriminately
                          Be respectful

                          Never got a response but I'm pretty sure all three of those are compatible with the above, meaning that they aren't direct violations of any of those Paths 1-10 Hierarchy of Sins. Or to put it another way, none of those Paths have the sins of 'Successfully Resisting Frenzy or Riding the Wave', 'Being Respectful', 'Not Murdering Indiscriminately'.

                          I think it's possible to do Tenets for Path followers, just requires a bit of work.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Haquim View Post

                            1. You keep saying that, I don't see how that's true. But I can see nothing will change your mind, which begets the question of why opening a thread asking a question about something you have already decided that cannot be done.

                            2. Nope. Paths were introduced to give players different options for roleplaying but too often ended up being a thinily veiled excuse to justify abusive behaviour. Again: "The Path of what I was going to do anyway" is not some definition I invented it's an official warning against that kind of behaviour dating back to Revised. As for the usual "badwrongfun" argument... you can have fun any way you want as long as you don't ruin it or cause distress to others. The fact you can't see how some Paths were abusable and were actually abused is not my problem but it's still a fact. And I'm not just talking about people upsetting other people (although that could be a huge problem with Paths) I'm talking about people selecting Paths with the precise idea of doing whatever they wanted and getting away with it, which, to me is a mechanical problem.
                            1) it's true because the battle against the beast is internal and personal, the tools.(Path) to fight that battle are yours alone.

                            2) and that's why I don't like how paths and the Sabbat were treated in revised.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Haquim View Post
                              It was never meant to be that way but thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly.
                              You show a remarkable ability to ignore context in order to find whatever snippet justifies your view.

                              So I must clarify.
                              Paths doing what they were expressly intended to do is a feature. Not a Bug. They are a tool for characters and players to use. They come with their own drawbacks, and picking a path with Drawbacks that don't screw you if you play it right is perfect behaviour both in-universe and out of universe. Complaining about something being useful for the people who use it is more than a little silly. I can understand that you may think things too powerful, but deriding all path users because you didn't like that one or two players used them to do something you didn't like without consequences is just a little... you're making yourself look bad.
                              Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 11-15-2020, 06:42 AM.


                              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                                You show a remarkable ability to ignore context in order to find whatever snippet justifies your view.

                                So I must clarify.
                                Paths doing what they were expressly intended to do is a feature. Not a Bug. They are a tool for characters and players to use. They come with their own drawbacks, and picking a path with Drawbacks that don't screw you if you play it right is perfect behaviour both in-universe and out of universe. Complaining about something being useful for the people who use it is more than a little silly. I can understand that you may think things too powerful, but deriding all path users because you didn't like that one or two players used them to do something you didn't like without consequences is just a little... you're making yourself look bad.
                                Do I? Because from where I sit it's more like you ignore everything that's presented and doesn't validate your views (including actual quotes from books that contraddict those same views... we have done this you and I).

                                Also, don't try to saddle me with stuff I did not say: I'm not "deriding Path followers" I'm saying that Paths were often used by people as a cheap excuse do justify their poor behaviour and general disregard for other people sitting at the table and playing the game. In all my years of playing and storytelling this game I have had the grand amount of 3 players who could play a path well and they were assets to our chronicles. The rest were people who just wanted to have plausible deniability when causing other players grief.

                                So, do I think Paths are bad per se? Not at all and I'm actually a fan of Roads as presented in DA:V, that's why I'm saying Paths can be implemented in V5. What I'm also saying is those people who look at Paths as a way to get justification for their bad behaviour at the table will have an hard time doing so under the V5 framework of rules, and personally I'm convinced that's a pretty good thing.

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